USAF COT 10-04

midinphx, BSN · Jan 25, 2010

Adam, after all this time you are thinking of backing out? Why? You have seemed so excited about it. What could change your mind? Can you share and maybe others can give you some insight.

carolinapooh, BSN, RN · Jan 26, 2010

you can still back out as far as i know. i've heard that you can back out once you get to COT too. i'm not sure how and i'm not asking because i don't want to be tempted when the homesickness kicks in. haha. so yeah, you can still back out.

Back out without a valid medical reason when you get to COT and you may get a general discharge - something you DON'T want on your record.

carolinapooh, BSN, RN · Jan 26, 2010

I have officially given up all hope trying to understand what goes on in the Air Force now that I know there is someone holding an August COT spot without having a license yet. I signed nothing with the AF until I had my license and what if you fail (hope you don't) but some people that have licenses are still waiting. I mean what the h3ll!
I am on the back burner till May too BTW...
Does anyone know know if you want to back out after you send your acceptance letter in is it possible? If certain things occur between now and May I might not be interested anymore. Might have to get a MD to diagnose me with something...

I got accepted in May and went to COT in October after sending my package in February after starting the package the PREVIOUS JUNE. Sucked but I knew I was going and so I didn't care.

The non-graduated nursing students are boarded differently than fully qualified (1 year or more experience) or already-licensed RNs, so that has nothing to do with your situation.

Once you start signing legal documents it becomes progressively harder to extricate yourself from the Feds. Why would you quit just because they're saying oh, sorry, you have to wait a few more months? Also - as the economy continues to hit rock bottom (and while the economic downturn is slacking off, the fallout hasn't stopped yet - we've got another round of five-year ARMs about to come due which means more banking problems on the horizon, so expect it to get worse before it really gets better) it's going to get harder and harder to get into the military as more and more slots fill. Keep that in mind - this isn't going to be something you'll be able to just mosey back into - and once you've told them thanks but no thanks (especially after you've signed stuff), they won't hold the door open for you again. They took time on you once and you changed your mind; I doubt they'd bother with you again.

Think very, very hard about any decisions you make along those lines.

DrCOVID, DNP · Jan 26, 2010

It's not the wait that has changed my mind... It's the headache caused by all government. Everyday I learn new things that influence my decision. Remember this is my opinion and nothing more:

A lot of it comes down to the financial since that's what jobs are about. I don't know if my loans will be repaid or if I will get bonus. If I don't know 100% before I go in if I will receive them or not then I can't include them at all. Now it's even more of a crap shoot now that Jan COT is out of the picture.

A couple of friends from nursing school say they hate the logistics/politics/drama of the ICUs that they work in and that 12 hour shifts suck (they are confirming what I already know, I spent some time in an ICU and hate 12 hour shifts).

Becoming a CRNA or a NP in the military takes from what I have read takes 4 years general exp, +1 year for the training course that will help you get in, +1-2 or more years work in an ICU, +2-2.5 years for the program, +4.5 years for the time you incur by going to school... so it's a ton of time that goes into it which if you plan on 20+ years is worth it but how can I commit so much up front if I have no idea what I am getting into. You must be much more likely to be deployed if you are an ICU nurse anyway and that scares the hell out of me. I know one of the good things is that you can eventually get an advanced degree in the AF with financial assistance, but it costs time and is necessary for promotion past O-4. Then there is the salary part, where once you have a masters your salary is quite a bit less than what it is for a civilian.

One of my friends makes 50 dollars per hour for home visits. Why would I join the military if I could POTENTIALLY make 90k+ per year anyway? Your salary would be cut in half (He is going to see if I can start working with him)!

Two other male friends (we graduated this past May) have been offered DON spots already at their jobs. I don't understand how but from what I know a DON job would be right up my ally. The wait for a similar position in the military would be much longer I'm sure.

I am also very much into investments (stocks/commodities/forex/options). But I don't have money because I haven't been working. No I can't predict the future, and I know it's not guaranteed. But if you are in the 5% of investors who know what they are doing you can forget about needing a job in the first place.

I was and am excited about being part of something greater than myself, but it seems at this point the all the military perks are not that great when you compare them to what they ask you to give. 3-4 years up front of floor nursing which I probably won't like along with six 12s on deployment and a being put in harms way? Don't know how I will manage that.

Jobs are all about the money all the time for me. Yes I get satisfaction out of helping others but if people were just looking for satisfaction then they wouldn't work they would volunteer.

HNELLA · Jan 26, 2010

A recent grad who is a DON would be a nursing home situation - not exactly a choice position. 12 hour days/shifts can be long and exhausting, but three and done. I have worked 12s, 8s, 16s and been salaried and what I discovered is that I always want to hours that I am not working until I start working them. You do become use to 12s and enjoy having the extra days off to get eveerything accomplished.

If you are in nursing for the $$$ and compare the job you are doing to what your friends make, you will always be depressed. Once you find an area that makes you happy and people you enjoy working with the money means so much less. From what I have seen with the tax free money, bonus, tuition reimbursement (active duty or as part of sign-on) it all sort of evens out. The benes are very attractive as well. Have you priced insurance costs at most facilities these days - whew!

People bring up the shipping out overseas to Iraq/Afganastan, but how many nurses/physicians have been killed since the war began? I think just one person and usually hospitals are the safest places to be during a war. You have just as much chance being killed by a drunk driver on the way to work in a stateside nursing job.

You can always take classes towards an NP whule active duty on a PT basis. It may take longer, but what else is there to do.

carolinapooh, BSN, RN · Jan 28, 2010

A recent grad who is a DON would be a nursing home situation - not exactly a choice position. 12 hour days/shifts can be long and exhausting, but three and done. I have worked 12s, 8s, 16s and been salaried and what I discovered is that I always want to hours that I am not working until I start working them. You do become use to 12s and enjoy having the extra days off to get eveerything accomplished.
If you are in nursing for the $$$ and compare the job you are doing to what your friends make, you will always be depressed. Once you find an area that makes you happy and people you enjoy working with the money means so much less. From what I have seen with the tax free money, bonus, tuition reimbursement (active duty or as part of sign-on) it all sort of evens out. The benes are very attractive as well. Have you priced insurance costs at most facilities these days - whew!
People bring up the shipping out overseas to Iraq/Afganastan, but how many nurses/physicians have been killed since the war began? I think just one person and usually hospitals are the safest places to be during a war. You have just as much chance being killed by a drunk driver on the way to work in a stateside nursing job.
You can always take classes towards an NP whule active duty on a PT basis. It may take longer, but what else is there to do.

I totally love this post. Well said.

People don't realize that 45 grand in the military is worth so much more than 45K on the outside. About $12000 of that is NOT TAXED, so is worth about twenty-five to thirty percent more - so add about $3000-4000 to that. Plus you don't pay for health insurance - or dental - or vision - or hospitalization - there's no such thing as sick leave - if you're sick, you go home; you have surgery and can't work, you go home - you use NO LEAVE and actually accrue leave during that time, hence the phrase "sick time is time served".

And if, God forbid, you become extremely ill - say you develop cancer - guess what - the military picks up the bill. I have a friend who developed breast cancer at a very young age (she was 25) and while she eventually did pass away, the Air Force transferred her to Texas so she could be treated at Wilford Hall, kept her on active duty until it was obvious she could not be cured, and then medically retired her with a HUGE separation check (let's put it this way - at our urging she bought a secondhand convertible and lived it up for the last eight months of her life, and her daughter's college is literally in the bank, still drawing interest). Her daughter will get full military benefits until she's 23 and her husband is taken care of until he remarries.

I take care of active duty members with cancer - one of them is quite young - and this person has told me how grateful they are for Tricare, because they're not even twenty-five and they realize how many problems they'd have if they weren't in the military.

This is the one thing that used to scare me - what would have happened to me if I'd gotten this sick? Eventually I would have had to leave work - and in this country, you leave work, you have no health insurance (I wouldn't have qualified for Medicaid). What if my husband had gotten sick? How would we have paid the bills? Now I don't worry anymore.

No, it's not my sole reason for coming back in. But it's certainly in the top ten. You're right - the benefits are unreal. And statistically I have a greater chance of being killed on I-410 here in San Antonio (and if you've ever been here you know they drive like idiots!) than I do at some forward location.

Deployed you often work three, have one off, and work three. I've been deployed, and while that schedule would BLOW in the States, it's different on a deployment. It's what you're there for, and believe me, it's different. When I was deployed, on my day off I'd be like, oh, I don't go in today. Big deal. Sit by the pool for a few hours, go to chow, and then go to bed and get up and go back in the next day. There's literally nothing to do.

If you'd hate nursing in the military, I wonder if you'd like it on the outside - because with a few exceptions (like everyone gets PICC lines! Everyone who can have one has a port!! Everyone gets every test they need!!! No one screams at insurance providers!!!) what I do at Wilford Hall is EXACTLY what I did at Duke, I just get paid a heck of a lot more and I don't worry about a whole bunch of stuff that used to scare me (like my pay, being downsized, getting sick, paying bills)!

carolinapooh, BSN, RN · Jan 28, 2010

It's not the wait that has changed my mind... It's the headache caused by all government. Everyday I learn new things that influence my decision. Remember this is my opinion and nothing more:
A lot of it comes down to the financial since that's what jobs are about. I don't know if my loans will be repaid or if I will get bonus. If I don't know 100% before I go in if I will receive them or not then I can't include them at all. Now it's even more of a crap shoot now that Jan COT is out of the picture.
A couple of friends from nursing school say they hate the logistics/politics/drama of the ICUs that they work in and that 12 hour shifts suck (they are confirming what I already know, I spent some time in an ICU and hate 12 hour shifts).
Becoming a CRNA or a NP in the military takes from what I have read takes 4 years general exp, +1 year for the training course that will help you get in, +1-2 or more years work in an ICU, +2-2.5 years for the program, +4.5 years for the time you incur by going to school... so it's a ton of time that goes into it which if you plan on 20+ years is worth it but how can I commit so much up front if I have no idea what I am getting into. You must be much more likely to be deployed if you are an ICU nurse anyway and that scares the hell out of me. I know one of the good things is that you can eventually get an advanced degree in the AF with financial assistance, but it costs time and is necessary for promotion past O-4. Then there is the salary part, where once you have a masters your salary is quite a bit less than what it is for a civilian.
One of my friends makes 50 dollars per hour for home visits. Why would I join the military if I could POTENTIALLY make 90k+ per year anyway? Your salary would be cut in half (He is going to see if I can start working with him)!
Two other male friends (we graduated this past May) have been offered DON spots already at their jobs. I don't understand how but from what I know a DON job would be right up my ally. The wait for a similar position in the military would be much longer I'm sure.
I am also very much into investments (stocks/commodities/forex/options). But I don't have money because I haven't been working. No I can't predict the future, and I know it's not guaranteed. But if you are in the 5% of investors who know what they are doing you can forget about needing a job in the first place.
I was and am excited about being part of something greater than myself, but it seems at this point the all the military perks are not that great when you compare them to what they ask you to give. 3-4 years up front of floor nursing which I probably won't like along with six 12s on deployment and a being put in harms way? Don't know how I will manage that.
Jobs are all about the money all the time for me. Yes I get satisfaction out of helping others but if people were just looking for satisfaction then they wouldn't work they would volunteer.

Who told you it would take that long to become an NP? Completely untrue. You can take classes whenever you want. Getting them to send you full time is a bit different, but you have tuition reimbursement available from the time you walk in the door.

DON? Not trying to be patronizing so I'll apologize in advance, but go shadow a DON and you might change your mind. If you want politics and drama, there's the prime place for it.

If you're not working, you're going to have to eventually. At least in the Air Force/Navy/Army you're guaranteed a job for the length of your commitment.

And I agree with you on one point in particular: at the end of the day, everyone is all about the money - anyone who says they're not must have been born with plenty of it. Yes, I love what I do - but really, I'm back in the Air Force for the money. If they were paying what I made on the outside I don't know if I would have bothered. Seriously. I won't lie about it. If RNs made five bucks an hour no one would do it, so you're dead on about that.

You're put in harm's way every time you pull onto an interstate - statistically you're more in harm's way on a day-to-day basis. The most protected, most fortified area on the base IS THE HOSPITAL, and that's been true since the beginning of warfare. If my dad were still living, he'd back me up - he was in Korea and Vietnam - he flew MEDEVAC in Nam (know the news footage of the corpsmen leaning out of choppers hauling the soldiers and Marines in? That's my Daddy). He told me he became a corpsman because he was chicken - he looked around when he was first in the Navy and saw who the most protected men on the ship were. They were the medical people.

I know several people who don't work on the floor and who are brand new AF RNs. They're working in clinics. In fact, next year I'm rotating to the cancer clinic (in fact, I'm headed there in just a few months) because my boss knows I want to be an NP and to do that I'm going to need outpatient experience. It's up to your head nurse where you work, not the Air Force itself. Choose bases with clinics if that's what you want.

Drama's everywhere. I've worked a lot of places and have done several different things - and believe me, you'll never get away from drama. So don't listen to your friends. Do the right thing and go out to form your own opinions.

RNinSCarolina · Jan 28, 2010

I agree with your point Carolinapooh: in the military thet will take care of you if sickness strikes. Also the thought that you will continually advance in rank as time goes compared to the civilian world where you are at the hospital's mercy to get a pay raise or not. Our hospital did not give any pay raises last year to any nurse, regardless of score on the annual evaluation.

I've sent my application to the November board last year and I'm still waiting like several other nurses with experience.

I'd like to ask several questions regarding going in as RN with critical care identifier and wanting to become Nurse Practitioner:

1. If I find my own distance learning school for FNP, when I get to the point when I have to do clinical practicum, can I make arrangements to do that at the base hospital/clinic? What's the AF's policy on that?

If the above is acceptable when I graduate and get my board certification, how does the AF change my identifier/specialty, what happens?

2. If the base hospital/clinic does not allow for my practicum in their environment, how does the AF help/support finalization of my degree?

3. If I take the avenue of applying to the AF's NP school in Bethesda, what kind of classes can I take during those 2 years prior to applying that will be recognized toward the NP degree? Can I take a whole MSN online with the allowed tuition from AF, then just do a post-master certificate for NP at their school? What kind of options do I have while I'm waiting?

4. If I'll be working in an ICU at the base hospital, is it required that I work in a clinic in order to meet the requirements to apply to USUHS NP program?

Thanks for all the feedback

DrCOVID, DNP · Jan 28, 2010

Who told you it would take that long to become an NP? Completely untrue. You can take classes whenever you want. Getting them to send you full time is a bit different, but you have tuition reimbursement available from the time you walk in the door.
DON? Not trying to be patronizing so I'll apologize in advance, but go shadow a DON and you might change your mind. If you want politics and drama, there's the prime place for it.
If you're not working, you're going to have to eventually. At least in the Air Force/Navy/Army you're guaranteed a job for the length of your commitment.
And I agree with you on one point in particular: at the end of the day, everyone is all about the money - anyone who says they're not must have been born with plenty of it. Yes, I love what I do - but really, I'm back in the Air Force for the money. If they were paying what I made on the outside I don't know if I would have bothered. Seriously. I won't lie about it. If RNs made five bucks an hour no one would do it, so you're dead on about that.
You're put in harm's way every time you pull onto an interstate - statistically you're more in harm's way on a day-to-day basis. The most protected, most fortified area on the base IS THE HOSPITAL, and that's been true since the beginning of warfare. If my dad were still living, he'd back me up - he was in Korea and Vietnam - he flew MEDEVAC in Nam (know the news footage of the corpsmen leaning out of choppers hauling the soldiers and Marines in? That's my Daddy). He told me he became a corpsman because he was chicken - he looked around when he was first in the Navy and saw who the most protected men on the ship were. They were the medical people.
I know several people who don't work on the floor and who are brand new AF RNs. They're working in clinics. In fact, next year I'm rotating to the cancer clinic (in fact, I'm headed there in just a few months) because my boss knows I want to be an NP and to do that I'm going to need outpatient experience. It's up to your head nurse where you work, not the Air Force itself. Choose bases with clinics if that's what you want.
Drama's everywhere. I've worked a lot of places and have done several different things - and believe me, you'll never get away from drama. So don't listen to your friends. Do the right thing and go out to form your own opinions.

Sorry, that time calculation was for CRNA, I know you can do the majority for the NP schooling concurrently while AD.

I don't care for drama, but if I am the DON, then I decide if there is drama or not :cool:

I am working, and in LTC at a local nursing home. Last place I thought I would work and actually surprised because I love working the night shift there. I stick out like a sore thumb (racially), but everyone is really friendly including most of the patients, but if they are mean I know it's because their brain is saturated with too much dopamine. Some of the CNAs piss me off but that will happen anywhere.

I also don't have to get on the interstate to get to work and avoid it like it is the most dangerous place to be

HNELLA · Jan 29, 2010

I just returned from San Antonio and YES they drive like crazy people. Have you noticed how hectic and scattered everyone is in H.E.B.?

The people in SA were great, but driving and shopping were hell!!

I do miss the RIM, Dry Dock and Bikini's ....

kato10 · Jan 29, 2010

I think the responses to AdammRN have been great. When thinking about the military you must consider all there is not just the base salary because if that is all you look at then forget it.

Here is a personal aspect as to why I am joining the AF. I currently work the "baylor" program as a NP (Sat/Sun) and have for 2 years. I take one night of call per week and make close to 6 figures. Yes, the money is very good for what amount I actually work. Now, take out the medical, dental, short-term disability, 401K, and all those crazy taxes. I loose quit a bit. Also, I was pregnant last year and unfortunately landed in the hospital with pre-term labor for 16 days. Ultimately, I was forced to stop working at 29 week gestation and was out until my little girl was 8 weeks. In the time period, I used all my vacation, extended illness and short-term disability entitlements. There was about a month where I didn't receive any money at all. Oh yes, and then the hospital bills came in for my lovely 16 day stay and the stay for the delivery. We paid several more thousands of dollars and I have insurance!!! Guess what would have happened if I were in the AF.....nohting. I would have been in the hospital still collecting a paycheck and accruing vacation all while the government foots the bill.

You really need to look outside the money and find out what you really want as a nurse and your future career. One big benefit if you have or will have kids one day is the Post 9/11 GI Bill. It is currently worth $67,000 and will continue to go up. If you are to stay and do 10 years AD it is transferrable to a child.....that is HUGE.

As for the deployments that is the military. The main reason you are serving is to support the troops. If you are scared to deploy or don't want to then you need to seriously reconsider your choice. Like others have said though the medical field is the safest as it falls under the Geneva convention.

Like Carolina said.....the economy is extremely rocky. The last thing you want is to be completely out of a job and have those loans to repay. The military is a safe haven. They aren't going to kick you out unless you do something really stupid. You really should be very thankful that you have a slot even if it is not your ideal date. I've heard that the AF might be putting nursing boards on hold for a bit as their numbers are high. This is not me saying this but came from a recruiter.

Please think long and hard about giving up your slot in the AF. You will not be giving another one if you change your mind.

DrCOVID, DNP · Jan 29, 2010

I think the responses to AdammRN have been great. When thinking about the military you must consider all there is not just the base salary because if that is all you look at then forget it.
Here is a personal aspect as to why I am joining the AF. I currently work the "baylor" program as a NP (Sat/Sun) and have for 2 years. I take one night of call per week and make close to 6 figures. Yes, the money is very good for what amount I actually work. Now, take out the medical, dental, short-term disability, 401K, and all those crazy taxes. I loose quit a bit. Also, I was pregnant last year and unfortunately landed in the hospital with pre-term labor for 16 days. Ultimately, I was forced to stop working at 29 week gestation and was out until my little girl was 8 weeks. In the time period, I used all my vacation, extended illness and short-term disability entitlements. There was about a month where I didn't receive any money at all. Oh yes, and then the hospital bills came in for my lovely 16 day stay and the stay for the delivery. We paid several more thousands of dollars and I have insurance!!! Guess what would have happened if I were in the AF.....nohting. I would have been in the hospital still collecting a paycheck and accruing vacation all while the government foots the bill.
You really need to look outside the money and find out what you really want as a nurse and your future career. One big benefit if you have or will have kids one day is the Post 9/11 GI Bill. It is currently worth $67,000 and will continue to go up. If you are to stay and do 10 years AD it is transferrable to a child.....that is HUGE.
As for the deployments that is the military. The main reason you are serving is to support the troops. If you are scared to deploy or don't want to then you need to seriously reconsider your choice. Like others have said though the medical field is the safest as it falls under the Geneva convention.
Like Carolina said.....the economy is extremely rocky. The last thing you want is to be completely out of a job and have those loans to repay. The military is a safe haven. They aren't going to kick you out unless you do something really stupid. You really should be very thankful that you have a slot even if it is not your ideal date. I've heard that the AF might be putting nursing boards on hold for a bit as their numbers are high. This is not me saying this but came from a recruiter.
Please think long and hard about giving up your slot in the AF. You will not be giving another one if you change your mind.

The beginning of your posts sound's like I should make it all about the benefits instead of the base pay though I can never get pregnant and don't want children anytime soon. I have many ideas of what I want in my career it's just about taking the path of least resistance. Deployment is the biggest thing making me seriously reconsider my choice. I will never not be thankful for my spot.

I am afraid I gave the wrong impression about the money. It is important but not the only thing I take into consideration. I don't understand why everyone says it's so terrible, it's really not, after all I will be getting a few dollar raise when I join. I am trying to decide if it's worth it or if I have better options. Clearly if I didn't think it were a good option I wouldn't have gone this far. All I was merely doing is saying that in the future there could be something significant enough to make me change my decision.

When I expressed this to my recruiter for the 2nd/3rd or so time yesterday it got blown way out of proportion. I asked when is the last chance one can back out and he said anytime before commissioning. He felt that since I expressed doubts and was not 100% committed (It's more like 94%) he should withdraw my application. He said well if I don't join it's because he failed in someway, it makes him look bad, and that I shouldn't be going through with all that I am if I am not 100%, blah, blah, blah. He felt because I had not gotten my BLS renewed for a few weeks and his wife was able to secure a nursing job and get her BLS renewed in a couple of days that this was another act of treachery. Of course it wasn't, because I didn't realize he had a deadline on it and didn't know they can apparently reject me because my application is considered 'incomplete' and because I don't have my BLS renewed 4 months before I go to the month-long officer training! Would have been helpful to know this before I submitted my application last November...

I don't agree with any of this and told him I would not be this far down the road if I thought it were a terrible decision and were appalled by any of the things I know the military will ask of me.