Union

ebear, BSN, RN · Dec 20, 2007

Until accountants and attorneys get out of the healthcare systems, I don't see very much change taking place for the better. Patient care is suffering, nurses are loosing their sanity, and docs are stressed to the gills just to avoid being sued (defensive medicine).

Mr. Huffman, more men are needed in nursing because it seems that they have the louder voice. Women are typically ignored as "emotional".

As far as the stereotypical comment of RN1989, most of it is still true today, IMO. Why is it that men will "babysit" their own children when the mom has to go run a million errands? Why is it looked at as "babysitting"? Is it not helping to raise your own children? It's just what the mom "is supposed to do." This is not just a Southern issue, but still speaks volumes of the way men think in general. Just my opinion.

ebear

James Huffman · Dec 20, 2007

Mr. Huffman, more men are needed in nursing because it seems that they have the louder voice. Women are typically ignored as "emotional".

Sorry, I gotta differ with you on this one.

Women who are ignored as "emotional" are usually being, well, emotional. Regardless of our political leanings, no one ignores Hillary Clinton, and no one ignored Margaret Thatcher. (I also encourage women who imagine that assertiveness was invented in 1973 to read the story of Jael in Judges 4, who assassinated a general with her bare hands. Or Queen Esther, in the book of Esther).

Women who assertively speak up, who say what they are thinking, who cut to the chase, and who avoid emotional outbursts are taken seriously -- in the same way that a man who does this is taken seriously. Women nurses shouldn't look for men to use a "louder voice": they should learn to speak up themselves. I refuse to carry the water for women who are afraid to speak up, afraid to say what they are thinking, who preface every assertion with, "This is just my opinion," or tear up because they have to confront a colleague or a manager.

janettalinda · Dec 20, 2007

I've been a shop steward and been on bargaining committee x2. We sit across the table from each other (union and management) as equals and NEGOCIATE re: working conditions, wages, etc. This is an adult to adult relationship. Without a union, we have a parent to child relationship. The child can whine, beg , plead, rant, vent, whatever, but not as an equal adult. Now the parent may be benevolent or abusive, whatever, but they still have all the POWER to call the shots regarding YOUR LIFE'S WORK!

"You can't beat the women....You, (women),ought to be out raising hell. This is the fighting age. Put on your fighting clothes."-Mother Jones, 1916

cjmjmom · Dec 20, 2007

I am encouraged that so many of you are in favor of unions! Nursing needs ONE voice and that's what a union could do for us. NNOC seems to be a great organizing force. It's made up of BEDSIDE nurses unlike ANA which is mainly educators and administrators. I have had the pleasure to meet NNOC members and have joined in their journey here in Ohio. For the first time in my 20 plus years in nursing I have finally found a bunch of nurses who are not only willing to talk about change but actually are acting on making it happen! We have much work to do but it is so exciting to be with so many like-minded professionals. I urge any of you if you are at all interested in learning about nursing unions go to the CNA/NNOC website and contact them. They are a DYNAMIC group of people who are willing to help and guide but will ultimately leave up the decision making to the involved nurses. If I am correct there are NNOC members in every state so it would be easy to join the movement!

ebear, BSN, RN · Dec 20, 2007

Women who "assertively speak up, say what they're thinking, cut to the chase", etc. are often taken for b*****s. That fact never stopped me, however. I don't rely on men to pick up the slack. I am well aware of Biblical women and the assertiveness of today's female politicians. They never worked in healthcare.

marie-francoise · Dec 20, 2007

Women who "assertively speak up, say what they're thinking, cut to the chase", etc. are often taken for b*****s. That fact never stopped me, however. I don't rely on men to pick up the slack. I am well aware of Biblical women and the assertiveness of today's female politicians. They never worked in healthcare.

Right - I think that's the reality of it - there still are differences in the way men and women are viewed. And some of those are justifiably so because, well, there are differences between men and women.

But as far as respect - THAT should really be apportioned equally, and it seems that even today, a man, just for being a man, always gets insta-respect, whereas a woman has to really prove herself to get it.

Women may get a species of respect out of courtesy, which is nice, of course; but it's different from being taken seriously, as someone with a brain and who is actually making a really good, sound point.

James Huffman · Dec 20, 2007

I've been a shop steward and been on bargaining committee x2. We sit across the table from each other (union and management) as equals and NEGOCIATE re: working conditions, wages, etc. This is an adult to adult relationship. Without a union, we have a parent to child relationship. The child can whine, beg , plead, rant, vent, whatever, but not as an equal adult. Now the parent may be benevolent or abusive, whatever, but they still have all the POWER to call the shots regarding YOUR LIFE'S WORK!

OK, but I've gotta wonder why professionals (nurses in this case) would see themselves -- whether union or not -- as children. I honestly don't know of any other professional group where people do. Unions are a tool, and as a tool they can sometimes be useful in doing one's career, but being in a union doesn't change a nurse from a child into an adult.

There's a kind of weird, toxic atmosphere in some health care settings, where you have competent professionals who act like children. Even worse, they act like children in an abusive situation. They whine, they complain, they take crap from other professionals that they shouldn't, they try to anticipate the other abusive party's behavior, and will often try to anticipate and do things to prevent the other party from going into a rage.

I remember vividly watching nurses sitting around for long stretches trying to decipher a doc's bad handwriting for an order. A group, mind you, of professionals, who had a lot to do, but they would sit and try to tease out what he might have meant. Innocently, I asked, "Why don't you just call him and ask what the order is?" Well, it turns out that this was a long-standing behavior, he scribbled, and they deciphered, and woe to the nurse who called, because he'd go into a rage. And this was vintage abused child behavior. What should be done was to call him every single time he wrote something illegible. And say that the order was illegible, and could not be carried out until he specifically said what it was. Without apologizing or cringing or whining. And of course, that would eventually stop his learned bad writing behavior, but like most parties in an abusive relationship, no one would call it quits. But it's time for nurses to stop viewing themselves as children, and most crucially, to stop behaving as children, and act like the professionals we are.

OC_An Khe · Dec 20, 2007

Employers have for a long time been viewed as paternalistic and will treat their employees in this manner.(the employees don't view themselves as children) In fact it at one time was the preferred/favored management style in the USA, particularly in manufacturing and low skilled areas. Employers (Parents) can be good or abusive, its easier to be abusive when being abusive earns you more money and respect. In the South and other right to work states the paternalstic, some would say feudal fief, mentality definitely exists and is in many respects the dominant culture.

When you form a Union there is a legal requirement to negotiate and once a contract is obtained you have legal recouse. This is one of the main reason I favor unions. Administration must deal with you. Though some will still try to be paternalistic and abusive if they can and will try to subvert union leadership if they can. The strength of a union is in active participation and solidarity of its members.

RN1980 · Dec 21, 2007

rn1980, a union rep came to talk to the nurses at baptist in columbus around 2003. the hospital really tried to bust it all up, even the head ceo from tn came down a few times. a pal of mine said the hospital told the nurses that they'll improve staffing and add techs, even administration came around at different hrs with snack carts and stuff for the staff everyday. well a majority of the nurses did'nt vote for the union, many later said they were threatened with job loss. but after the union people left, staffing went back to zilch and no more snacks, i bet now they wish they would've voted for it, cause i hear morale stinks there now. of course i get this info from people that i know who work there.

hey i do remember that, happened right before katrina hit. i think i remember soome hospital ceo's from around the area had a couple of meetings about how to deal with the issue and bust the whole thing up, i bet they would have had a fit if the union thing took hold there, i know the old geezer here would've had an a coronary. i even remember hearing that the ceo there resigned or got canned d/t the stress of the whole ordeal, they got this new guy over there, i hear things are still the same.

James Huffman · Dec 21, 2007

hey i do remember that, happened right before katrina hit. i think i remember soome hospital ceo's from around the area had a couple of meetings about how to deal with the issue and bust the whole thing up, i bet they would have had a fit if the union thing took hold there, i know the old geezer here would've had an a coronary. i even remember hearing that the ceo there resigned or got canned d/t the stress of the whole ordeal, they got this new guy over there, i hear things are still the same.

Any company is within their rights to put forth their side on unionization.

Things change when a union certification vote comes up.

If a nurse is threatened with a job loss (or whatever) because of their union views, they should file a formal complaint with the National Labor Relations Board.

I repeat what I've said over and over: nurses who are threatened -- in any way -- should file a formal complaint. Whining, complaining, or crying does no good. Professionals do their job and handle complaints in a professional manner. Whining or crying demeans the professional status of nursing.

actioncat · Dec 24, 2007

I worked in a union facility. I know for a fact that wages at other hospitals went up when we received a significant raise. They had to, of course. So the non-union hospitals followed suit and so did other facilities. Our union was responsible for everyone's higher wages in the area, in my opinion.

Think about that when complaining about unions.

outcomesfirst, BSN, RN · Dec 24, 2007

I have worked in two union facilities and my conclusion is that union rules trump health care delivery. From the basics of who and when trash cans get emptied to the model of nursing care delivery and mandated overtime - unions (in my experience) hurt, not helped nurse and patients. Instead of one parent the nurse now has two - "Administration" and "Union". Unions are a step backwards for nurses. If a nurse cannot independently decide on what a safe, effective, quality, rewarding environment is...I am not sure if they should be a nurse today.