Thought I would throw a loose one into the fray.... I would love to be proven wrong on any count....
I honestly believe "enquiry based learning" (EBL) is a con. They basically say "go off and learn about X and present your findings to your group"... That takes a couple of hours of their time; but they bill the nhs for giving you FULL-time training, kerching! The part, however, that really worries me is the quality of the material that these future practitioners are learning and so going to base life or death decisions on in a very short time. The learning is un-checked as is the true competency of the student.
Overall, the students are being let down severly and their future patients are frankly in danger of recieving some very dodgy care based on unsupervised learning. Lives are at risk imho.
I also trained in the old fashioned way in Scotland, qualifying in 1990.I then trained as a midwife in Dublin in 2000, also in the old fashioned way. For me, I don't think there would be a better way. I learn best by doing things repeatedly, after formal teaching.I remember P2000 coming in and noticed the change in how students approached the wards.Some did come in late, didn't stay for the shift, couldn't work certain shifts.
I now think that perhaps it's not all the students fault.In my student days (both times) I was counted as part of the staff but was also paid as part of the staff.
Students now have other commitments to employers who actually pay their bills. Nursing doesn't pay them a bean. I know they get a grant but most students doing other courses with grants also have other jobs.
Maybe if we went back to paying for hours worked, students would learn more on the job and have an incentive to be on the ward, not working for another employer to earn money to eat.
Just my thoughts after arguments with my friend who trained in P2000.
i was in the last group of students who trained in the project 2000. i just want to say yes training was different to how some of you trained pre p2000, but i 2 worked just as hard, made beds, know drugs, drugs and docs rounds take charge etc etc. we did spend more time in uni than on wards but as you come up to qualify more time was spent on wards.
i have also found how some pre 2000 nurses are so stuck in their old ways that they need to realise things are updated now and sometimes this causes conflict. im not saying its wrong but things move on and in years to come things will be completely different for me as times change so i will have to adapt. i just want to say because im a p 2000 trained nurse i dont consider myself in competent and ask stupid questions. i feel i have excelled and very proud of myself. i have only been qualified 2 and half yrs and have just got sponsorship to do my health visitor course, which is very difficult to get in UK. i know 2 members of staff on my ward who tried to get sponsorship for HV course and didnt and they are 'F' grades who qualified way before p 2000, so p2000 cant be as bad.
Specializes in midwifery, ophthalmics, general practice.
i have also found how some pre 2000 nurses are so stuck in their old ways that they need to realise things are updated now and sometimes this causes conflict. .
interesting comments.
ok I'm old and trained in the old school, and yes things have changed. But.. Have they changed for the better?? hmmm I dont think patients get the care they deserve. I'm a community matron and it horrifies me to visit my patients and find 3 days worth of drugs sitting on their bedside cabinets because the nurse doing the drug round left them there to be taken later! Or going in and finding my lady with a leg ulcer hasnt had it looked at for 4 days... or finding ladies who went in with intact pressure areas being discharged with huge sacral sores. I'm sorry if I think thats unacceptable but it is. I'd hate to work in a hospital. I think they are under staffed and working under tremendous pressure to deliver the impossible. If I ran a ward, I'd be hated!
I worked with P2000 nurses... and have to say what a superior bunch they thought they were...............or at least the ones I had the misfortune to work with and they did ask stupid questions........... ! But thats a massive generalisation. I work with student nurses today doing their first community placement and I wonder how some of them actually got accepted on to the course. They are late, want to go home early, untidy.. some look like they've been dragged through hedges! I've sent one home to get tidied up because she looked so unprofessional. they wear nail varnish, have talons for nails, ear rings... all sorts. They are horrified at some of the stuff I do ( washing peoples legs before doing a leg ulcer dressing) they seem to be adverse to getting their hands dirty. we had one so bad that we refused to take students for a year- she caused untold problems in her placement and upset everyone- patients and staff! Again, I am making massive generalisations......... but thats the student nurse I come into contact with and I'm not impressed. I hope that our bunch are not representative of students... dont think they can be!
oh and I'm not stuck in the dark ages. I'm a nurse practitioner, a clinical practice teacher, an extended and supplementary prescriber and at present undertaking a masters in respiratory care.
how to change things?
pay us what we worth ( I dont think adgenda for change was anything more than a political game)
make the training more practical... let the students find out early on about working shifts/nights/weekends. then they wont be stunned when they find out its actually hard work. they need practical skills... and doing 'menial stuff' like bed baths does wonders for communication skills and helps them to learn assessment skills. they should be paid and counted in the ward numbers.. maybe from the second year. that would help them financially. I agree we need professional recognition and yes, degree status but there must be better ways.
and stop this explosion of titles.............please NMC get your act in gear and regulate the titles. latest is National practitonier..............there is a national practitioner conference with titles such as theatre national practioner being bandied about! why do we need so many titles?? I dont know what they all mean... so why should the patients????
Specializes in Midwifery,Ambulatory Care, Community.
interesting comments.
ok I'm old and trained in the old school, and yes things have changed. But.. Have they changed for the better?? hmmm I dont think patients get the care they deserve. I'm a community matron and it horrifies me to visit my patients and find 3 days worth of drugs sitting on their bedside cabinets because the nurse doing the drug round left them there to be taken later! Or going in and finding my lady with a leg ulcer hasnt had it looked at for 4 days... or finding ladies who went in with intact pressure areas being discharged with huge sacral sores. I'm sorry if I think thats unacceptable but it is. I'd hate to work in a hospital. I think they are under staffed and working under tremendous pressure to deliver the impossible. If I ran a ward, I'd be hated!
I worked with P2000 nurses... and have to say what a superior bunch they thought they were...............or at least the ones I had the misfortune to work with and they did ask stupid questions........... ! But thats a massive generalisation. I work with student nurses today doing their first community placement and I wonder how some of them actually got accepted on to the course. They are late, want to go home early, untidy.. some look like they've been dragged through hedges! I've sent one home to get tidied up because she looked so unprofessional. they wear nail varnish, have talons for nails, ear rings... all sorts. They are horrified at some of the stuff I do ( washing peoples legs before doing a leg ulcer dressing) they seem to be adverse to getting their hands dirty. we had one so bad that we refused to take students for a year- she caused untold problems in her placement and upset everyone- patients and staff! Again, I am making massive generalisations......... but thats the student nurse I come into contact with and I'm not impressed. I hope that our bunch are not representative of students... dont think they can be!
oh and I'm not stuck in the dark ages. I'm a nurse practitioner, a clinical practice teacher, an extended and supplementary prescriber and at present undertaking a masters in respiratory care.
how to change things?
pay us what we worth ( I dont think adgenda for change was anything more than a political game)
make the training more practical... let the students find out early on about working shifts/nights/weekends. then they wont be stunned when they find out its actually hard work. they need practical skills... and doing 'menial stuff' like bed baths does wonders for communication skills and helps them to learn assessment skills. they should be paid and counted in the ward numbers.. maybe from the second year. that would help them financially. I agree we need professional recognition and yes, degree status but there must be better ways.
and stop this explosion of titles.............please NMC get your act in gear and regulate the titles. latest is National practitonier..............there is a national practitioner conference with titles such as theatre national practioner being bandied about! why do we need so many titles?? I dont know what they all mean... so why should the patients????
off soap box.............. :)
Karen
Oh I do agree with all thats been said ! but since i was 1 of the new pk2000(1994) i worked my Butt off and it was more staff encouragement and willingness to teach. It was hard work and I did nights weekends etc and had 2 yong children(i don't know how I survived!!)
But it has paid off-7yrs+ later i am a F/G-gradeSenRN&RM(depending on where u go and afc), and when i had students on placement, I made them work:p and i think alot of staff are just fed-up with teaching students who show no interest at all in clinical skills just quote from text-books and pass their nursing program with 1st class hons/diplomas, then change professions or travel the world instead!
Think I need to clarify a couple of things. In my original post I said "enquiry based learning". Thats what it is called at my place of study. Please don't confuse it with Evidence. A good evidence based practice is what we all should work from, my remarks are based on a teaching technique only; namely the way students are sent away to look into subjects themselves to learn their proffession. The problem which honestly gives me sleepless nights is that this self taught learning is very loosly checked. I personally take care with my sources of information (good texts, journels, DOH websites) but I shudder at the thought of what some students will google to get themselves through.
I am now approaching the end of my second year and I honestly believe that of all that I have been taught in theory time; 85% has not be tested/vetted. There seems to be an "its on your honour system" at work and patients will die because of it imho. Human nature will always seek the quickest route to achieve a goal.
Specializes in midwifery, ophthalmics, general practice.
Think I need to clarify a couple of things. In my original post I said "enquiry based learning". Thats what it is called at my place of study. Please don't confuse it with Evidence. A good evidence based practice is what we all should work from, my remarks are based on a teaching technique only; namely the way students are sent away to look into subjects themselves to learn their proffession. The problem which honestly gives me sleepless nights is that this self taught learning is very loosly checked. I personally take care with my sources of information (good texts, journels, DOH websites) but I shudder at the thought of what some students will google to get themselves through.
I am now approaching the end of my second year and I honestly believe that of all that I have been taught in theory time; 85% has not be tested/vetted. There seems to be an "its on your honour system" at work and patients will die because of it imho. Human nature will always seek the quickest route to achieve a goal.
John
hi John
ok... to address your original question. I firmly believe in evidence based practice. Its not how I was trained... ok we hit the wards after 9 weeks introductory block and it was very much.. we do it like this and you dont need to know why! I admit there are severe drawbacks to this. But adult learners are supposed to self directed... not easy when you are lazy like me! I think we need a balance between the 'because we've always done it like this' and the 'go away and bring back the evidence'. As student nurses you dont know what you need to know! Benner would say 'unconsiously incompetent'!! yuo need to be more guided in your study.
I guess thats my point... there seem to be students out there who havent a clue about anything and it worries me to think of them in charge of wards...
on the 'thats how its always been done' note............as a student nurse we always treated leg ulcers with Gales honey- bought by the sister on her way into work at the local co-op...........because it worked! have to smile when i read all this stuff about malucca honey and its healing power... Gales honey seemed to do the trick!
ok... to address your original question. I firmly believe in evidence based practice. Its not how I was trained... ok we hit the wards after 9 weeks introductory block and it was very much.. we do it like this and you dont need to know why! I admit there are severe drawbacks to this. But adult learners are supposed to self directed... not easy when you are lazy like me! I think we need a balance between the 'because we've always done it like this' and the 'go away and bring back the evidence'. As student nurses you dont know what you need to know! Benner would say 'unconsiously incompetent'!! yuo need to be more guided in your study.
I guess thats my point... there seem to be students out there who havent a clue about anything and it worries me to think of them in charge of wards...
on the 'thats how its always been done' note............as a student nurse we always treated leg ulcers with Gales honey- bought by the sister on her way into work at the local co-op...........because it worked! have to smile when i read all this stuff about malucca honey and its healing power... Gales honey seemed to do the trick!
Karen
Totally agreed. U highlight the failings of the old system; ie you do it because we have done it that way for so long (brown paper bags and vinegar anyone?).
My point, however, is that the current teaching technique is good in theory; lets all learn from well researched evidence base; but the teaching bodies (colleges/uni's) are not checking this teaching out. I attend college now 1.5 days a week at most, yet the college signs me off as full time. They are getting paid for full time teaching. THIS IS A CON. They are raking in cash from taxpayers for fulltime delivery of education but not delivering it. Worse still, they are delivering questionably trained nurses into the health system.
So, how you all feel about accepting a needle from a newly qualified nurse now?
So, how you all feel about accepting a needle from a newly qualified nurse now?
John
If their mentors were actually good mentors, I'd be happy for a student to administer an IM to me, no problems. Alot is down to good mentorship as well as improving the current system of training!
Specializes in Midwifery,Ambulatory Care, Community.
If their mentors were actually good mentors, I'd be happy for a student to administer an IM to me, no problems. Alot is down to good mentorship as well as improving the current system of training!
Very True!! as a mentor and having completed PK2000 I had to tell/guide students time after time what was needed for their EBL and their PBL as they did not have a clue!! Also had to teach/mentor as it would be a bad reflection on me and my practice (plus I did not want them injuring me , themselves or the patient(s) )
At my University we do "Problem Based Learning" and I think it is a bit pants. Personally I put a lot of effort into researching my presentations and make sure any info is from reputable sources etc but the quality of some of the presentations are awful with people getting information from any old internet site. It is very worrying that future nurses at university level cannot even research a topic and present it properly. These presentations are not assesed, i think if there is going to be so much theory work then it needs to be monitored closely. We only get one hour of practical a week!!!! I am only in first year so hopefully things would get better. We are not all that bad- i love getting involved in patient care etc and the practical side of things, I feel really frustrated that I have only had one go at taking a manual blood pressure at Uni- I have resorted to buying my own sphigmomanometer and practising like mad on all my friends. I am going on my first placement I really do not want to be a burden on my mentor or anything- am worried now eeeep
Specializes in renal,peritoneal dialysis, medicine.
i think alot of the problem with students is the fact that alot of the mentors on the wards are bad quality and pass this on through their teaching, also the wards are very short staffed, its very difficult to spend time with a student if you are rushed off your feet because you are three staff down (which is often the case these days) only qualified myself two years ago and i can honestly say that nclex taught me more in six months than 3 years in uni did!
You hated it? That surprises me actually, I felt I got a great education at Kings, but as with everything, it depends on your tutors and the hospitals you are attached to... I spent 90% of my time at Tommy's, loved every minute, but was glad to get to a smaller hospital on qualifying, I like knowing all the staff
I done the two year graduate course, we, like you, had a huge dropout rate, but that was more because the two year course was so intense and they couldn't hack it, lol. I don't think I would have done nursing training if I'd have had to endure Sociology, Psychology etc after already doing it at degree level! I can't believe the rules have changed so much in three years that they apel people just because they have worked in a care setting, that's just rediculous.
Best of luck with the rest of your training!
Hey dont get me wrong. Training GSTT was the best thing that ever happened i had the greatest placements in neuro, cardiothoracics, renal transplants etc. it was the university, the terrible we'll sort of half teach it approach and the general feeling that it was pointless or boring. And that was felt on masse by the majority who constantly asked what any of the stuff we learnt had to do with anything.
scotjan
33 Posts
Hi,
I also trained in the old fashioned way in Scotland, qualifying in 1990.I then trained as a midwife in Dublin in 2000, also in the old fashioned way. For me, I don't think there would be a better way. I learn best by doing things repeatedly, after formal teaching.I remember P2000 coming in and noticed the change in how students approached the wards.Some did come in late, didn't stay for the shift, couldn't work certain shifts.
I now think that perhaps it's not all the students fault.In my student days (both times) I was counted as part of the staff but was also paid as part of the staff.
Students now have other commitments to employers who actually pay their bills. Nursing doesn't pay them a bean. I know they get a grant but most students doing other courses with grants also have other jobs.
Maybe if we went back to paying for hours worked, students would learn more on the job and have an incentive to be on the ward, not working for another employer to earn money to eat.
Just my thoughts after arguments with my friend who trained in P2000.
Janet