transgender nurse (transvestite)

lilpoo_1 · Jan 18, 2004

Originally posted by CCU NRS
She is concerned about disruption and problems in a class with a person that will for obvious reasons be a distraction by default!

Why would this person by default be a distraction? Are divorced people or African American people a distraction in the classroom also just because they are "different"? Just my input.

CCU NRS · Jan 18, 2004

Originally posted by lilpoo_1
Why would this person by default be a distraction? Are divorced people or African American people a distraction in the classroom also just because they are "different"? Just my input.

Are you telling me you can tell by looking who is divorced in class full of people?

Big Bab's · Jan 18, 2004

Originally posted by 3rdShiftGuy
My skin must be very very thick. I've enjoyed this thread. I haven't noticed any "freaking out" or hostility that would send me running. Some strong disagreements, yes, perhaps I need to go back and reread this thread.

But I'm a charge nurse, I get yelled at by supervisors, by staff, by doctors, by respiratory therapists, orderlies, phlebotimists. Nothing bothers me.

I think the bottom line that most agree on, is that the student should be fairly admitted to the program. It is definately going to be an issue that staff, students, patients are going to have to deal with. But hopefully, a good nurse can come out of it and perhaps some minds can be opened.

hawaiit, thanks for sharing your story.

I second everything tweety said here...I couldn't have put it any better!!:)

hawaiit · Jan 18, 2004

I will put any stateboard, medical facility, educational sys., union, or individual on notice that if you discriminate aganist me or any colleage on the basis of any form of sexual discrimination, or GID dissability I will use the vast networking facilities of the Gay and Tg socieiies across the country with their enormous legal facilities to consume you! A large portion of my education was paid for by the GI bill and the Veterns Administrations loves to protect its investments as the state of Texas once found out in my behalf. If you call me a deviant it better be in private otherwise it can fall under the jurisdiction of "Felony Hate CRIME"!

Felonies commited as hate crimes carrying exaggerated legal consequences. Federal task forces going after civilrights violators especially when they are under pressure from militant 'deviant societies" can make real headlines, and real headaches. The state boards are not likely to share your opions of psych. problems, it didn't fall into any of the categories they listed. Sexual discrimination in the work place is aslo a violation of federal stautes, a felony. Most stateboards will disqualify you on the basis of felonies. I would be more worried about that than getting a stateboard to disqualify someone on the basis of their sexual preferences. I prefer to walk very softly, humbly, respectfully, but if you discriminate against me, there is an organized, vast army of militant deviates carrying a big sword just waiting for names, dates, and places. Ten percent of the pop. of the US is gay or tg oriented to some degree. That doesn't make us deviant, that makes us a minority! Concerning those who consider us sinful to teach to, work aside, or be treated by. consider this. The King James Bible, the most widely read and respected book ever written, was authorized apparently by God Almighty, and by a homosexual "deviant" King James.

So we are working up to a frenzy now with more and more authorites supporting the rights of discrimination under various disquises. I am grateful there are also more very admiral and wise good hearted caring souls who wish to put this issue aside as I do. Personally I will make it as hard as possible for you to recognize my deviant GID. and I will say no more, except if you do recognize me you better keep my secret, secret!

ERNUTBALL · Jan 18, 2004

Originally posted by athomas91
in re-reading the posts of the OP - i find that her concern (correct me if i am wrong) is not in the fact that this student is transgender - although she admits that this is an unusual circumstance for her.... her concern seemed to stem from the fact that this student was changing identities on a wkly basis (man one wk/ woman the next) and that even when dressed as a woman - still had facial hair and designating features....again i reiterate - although most of us have absolutely no problem with transgendered individuals - the majority of our patients will - and when little old ladies start yelling at administration - they will look for reasons...they always do...as well as the other students...will they complain that this person is treated differently due to the transgender issues....as an instructor - these are valid concerns...perhaps if the individual finished transformation prior to pt care it would alleviate the concern - as then - closed minded patients would make trouble.....i have said it many times on this post - we need to deal in reality!!

Alas Dear AT, I do believe that the initial statement was one of personal distress over teaching the individual and whether the individual should be allowed to become a nurse. And, this is the reality we are dealing with. It is sad that in this society,with all it's claims of being the leader of the free world, that so many of our own citizens are still plagued by the antiquated notion that those of differing sexual orientations and gender identification issues are mentally ill or lack the inalienable rights of "the rest of America". As many others have pointed out it is the attitude of those "in charge" that often sets the tone for any given social arena. And, as with any social belief it often takes a legislative movement to eventually shift the discriminatory belief systems within a society. It was not so long ago that African American individuals were not permitted to attend public schools, let alone obtain a college degree and become a nurse. It took making discrimination illegal to change attitudes. Had it not been for the tremendous efforts of the civil rights movement where would we be as a society? Even with those advances many are still discriminated against. And we call ourselves leaders??? As health care providers, mentors to students and visible agents of change in this world we must all be able and willing to accept, embrace and honor the differences among us. An individual's ability to be an effective and skilled nurse has nothing to do with their sexual orientation, religion, gender identity, race, etc. Rather, the health care field provides the perfect arena to challenge and change some of the antiquated ideas of our society. Teach your students, friends and patients respect, tolerance, understanding, dignity and compassion! That's what nursing is about! :kiss

ERNUTBALL · Jan 18, 2004

Originally posted by nursecathy
I am savvy regarding cultural diversity and do not consider this a "cultural issue". I am concerned about this persons welfare and feel that he will be treated less than well at this hospital by both staff and patients. I am also a patient advocate and I know that last year this person would be male one day and female the next. Would you feel comfortable with this person providing care to your private areas? Be honest. It is easy to say, "He has rights" and other statements that sound like the familiar soapbox jargon but can you really be totally honest about what kind of nurse you want for your most personal needs. I have a vision of my preference. I feel that he/she should complete the change process before entering nursing. Why should all society change to protect the rights of a few deviants? What about my rights?

I responded to AThomas91 regarding another reply to this issue, but I feel compelled to address this as well. First and foremost, the term deviant, regardless of the Webster's definition is, when used in this society, is done so with a negative connotation. Therefore it is to be assumed (and yes, I understand the dangers of assumption) that those who use the term deviant do, in fact, believe the transgender or whatever population they project this term upon, to be "wrong/mentally ill" Do you also include gays and lesbians in your list of deviants? If so, would you also say then that gay/lesbian individuals should not care for patients of the same gender? Would you want them providing care to your private areas? Be honest... Are these not your questions? Granted, I do understand the difficulty with alternating dress from day to day and this seems to have been addressed, other than that. I think the issue at hand is more one of personal phobia. As for the question of society changing...I don't think it has any choice but to change. See my reply to AThomas91 for further soapbox rebuttle on that topic.

PMHNP10 · Jan 18, 2004

Originally posted by hawaiit
The state boards are not likely to share your opions of psych. problems, it didn't fall into any of the categories they listed. !

I might very well be reading too much into your post, but since you did not specifically address me, I am only able to assume you were addressing me based upon the above sentence. Under that assumption, I am going to respond. If my assumption is incorrect, I apologize.

First of all, at no point did I express my personal opinion. I presented facts. I am aware that in my (TX) Nurse Practice Act, it doesn't specify this disorder, but as I stated GID is found within the DSM IV as a psych disorder. Whether you or I agree with whether it is a psych disorder or not is irrelevant here. The DSM IV is the foremost authority for psych diagnoses. Second, while it might not be in my (TX) Nurse Practice Act, I believe it is reasonable to believe that there COULD possibly be a state out there which might include Gender Identity Disorder, and might make those who would be diagnosed with that disorder go through special provisions to earn their license . If there is no such mention of Gender Identity Disorder in any state's nurse practice act, wonderful. If there is, and this student is attempting to earn a license in a state which does include GID, then I was merely making a suggestion for the OP to make the student aware of this. This knowledge would certainly be in the student's best interest.

SouthRN · Jan 18, 2004

Originally posted by LisaRN2B
I agree as well.

While I am not homophobic nor closed minded, I think that cross-dressing and/or transsexualism IS deviant behavior in our society. It certainly does stray from the norm.

I have participated in an educational environment with a fellow student who was in the process of becoming transsexual. He had to live for two years as a female for all intents and purposes before he could undergo the surgery. It was an awkward situation, not only for most of the other students, but for him/her as well.

I can understand the OP's question as to whether patients would feel okay about being taken care of by a transsexual nurse. Can you imagine some of your patients (maybe especially the older ones) reactions if it was obvious that this person was not the sex for which they are dressing? Maybe it won't be obvious, but it was in the case of my fellow student. It just made it that much harder for a lot of people to accept.

I think the OP has no choice but to accept that this person is going to be a student and must not show disdain toward teaching this student, regardless of personal opinion. It is not her place to tell the student they cannot be there if they have been accepted and enrolled by the powers that be. As for the timing issue, this student will have to come to that conclusion (if they do at all) on their own.

But like they always taught us in Psyche classes... WHAT IS NORMAL? Hard thing to describe... What may be normal for me may not be normal for you and vice versa.....

I think everyone deserves a chance at being a nurse if that is what they want to do. member or lady parts... It IS still a human being underneath it all, right? And handling another person's genitals? If a MD asked me to chaperone a female patient when the other nurse is a male.. Tough! I will not assume another RN's pt.

It sounds like SOMEONE has the problem... I don't think it's the student.. EOD!

LisaRN2B · Jan 18, 2004

Originally posted by SouthRN
But like they always taught us in Psyche classes... WHAT IS NORMAL? Hard thing to describe... What may be normal for me may not be normal for you and vice versa.....
.........

Normal: A setting on a washing machine.

Godswill · Jan 18, 2004

Originally posted by fab4fan
I guess I will be the lone voice of dissent, here, but I think this prospective student needs to work through which sex he feels best suits him. It would be very disruptive both in the classroom and clinical setting to try to accommodate someone alternating his identity on a daily basis.

I don't think it's appropriate, though, to label these individuals "deviants." Somehow, I get the impression that this student wouldn't get much of a fair shake from you, based on that comment. I hope for his sake he is able to work this out and go to a school that will be less judgemental.

I'm actually beginning to wonder about this thread...

Being a Sociology Major, i feel when she say deviant she means some one who is challengeing the norm or going against the grain of what society see as normal, it in no shape or form mean the person is bad IMO

fab4fan · Jan 18, 2004

Originally posted by Godswill
Being a Sociology Major, i feel when she say deviant she means some one who is challengeing the norm or going against the grain of what society see as normal, it in no shape or form mean the person is bad IMO

I've already explained how the use of the word "deviant" can be harmful in a previous post.

FNP grrl · Jan 19, 2004

First and foremost, the term deviant, regardless of the Webster's definition is, when used in this society, is done so with a negative connotation. Therefore it is to be assumed (and yes, I understand the dangers of assumption) that those who use the term deviant do, in fact, believe the transgender or whatever population they project this term upon, to be "wrong/mentally ill"

I totally agree with ERnutball's assessment of the use of the word "deviant." Unfortunately, as soon as I came across that word choice in one of NurseCathy's early posts, I felt that the spirit of her inquiry was being shaped by fear & ignorance, not an open-minded search for information. I was also immediately suspicious, upon reading the way she used the word "deviant", that perhaps what she was really looking for was validation of her fear that this student was in some way unfit to become a student nurse.

I have been heartened to see that there are folks participating in this discourse- on all sides of the 'fence'- who have shown a willingness to learn & grow- including NurseCathy. At least, I hope that is what is happening! I appreciate your apology for that original word choice, Cathy- that meant a lot to me, personally. As another poster noted, until that word has been leveled against you for simply living your truth with honesty & integrity, it is hard to know what the connotation truly feels like. I am speaking from personal experience: I am gay; I've been there, believe me. I'm also a parent, so this debate is deeply meaningful to me.

Just as sexual orientation has never felt anything like a "choice" for me, or for the vast majority of gay/les/bi folks, gender identification doesn't feel anything like a "choice" for most (any?) transgendered folks. I am frequently troubled by the dismissive way sexual & gender orientation are discussed by those who don't struggle with these issues- even well-meaning people.

Referring to such basic, core aspects of our existence (ie sexual orientation & gender identity) as "choices" and "lifestyles" and saying things like "I don't agree with their 'decision' [to be gay or trans]" inherently dehumanizes those of us who walk in those shoes every day of our lives, IMO. This isn't my "lifestyle"...this is my LIFE. I hope the distinction I am trying to make is clear, because I think understanding this distinction is critical in the situation that inspired this thread.

Some of you "don't agree with" that student's "choices"? I would argue that there are no "choices" to agree or disagree with. This student is who she is. Or rather, she is in the process of becoming who she is. The only choice she has made, as far as I can tell, is to choose to try her best to be true to herself, against very steep odds.

NurseCathy, and others here who demonstrate a lack of knowledge regarding gender & sexual orientation issues: I can forgive ignorance if you are truly seeking to broaden your understanding. I think a lot of you are trying to do that. I know I am gulity of ignorance regarding lots of things; we all are. Ignorance isn't wicked- but refusing to learn is.

And I must say that I do hold nurses to a higher standard of tolerance/ acceptance than I do the general populace; and I hold nurse educators to a higher standard still. Sure, we are all human & none of us is perfect. But Nurse Cathy, YOU are in the position of power in the relationship w/ your students; I do hold you responsible for educating yourself regarding this student's (and other trans folk's) difficult & complex journey.

I think we all owe it to our patients to be more educated about this issue, in fact. As an ED nurse for many years, I have lost count of how many times I have seen a transgender patient become the focus of the entire department's ridicule...and believe me, I am no goody-goody nurse. I can be as cynical & full of dark humor as the next one- but I don't base my humor in the ER on denying someone else's humanity. Not that I heard any of you doing that in this thread- I am just relating my personal experiences along these lines. I'll bet lots of you have seen the same type of thing happen if you think about it.

Cathy, I suggest you (and anyone else here who is baffled or disgusted by transgendered people) go online & do a little reading from reputable sources regarding transgenderism. I can promise that each of us either knows, works with, or will have as a patient, at least one transgendered individual, whether you realize it or not. Probably many. Contrary to poular belief, it is NOT always externally obvious when someone has deeply-felt gender identification 'issues'.

One of the things you'll be disturbed (I hope) to learn is the violence and sanctioned discrimination that transfolk are at risk of experiencing. Of all marginalized groups, they remain among those at greatest risk of hazing, harassment, domestic battery, assault, murder, rape, depression, suicide, and blatant, institutionalized discrimination- despite many positive advances in gay civil rights.

And consider this: who do trans folks receive their health care from? the answer is too often nobody...mostly because of ignorance & misunderstanding in the health care community & fear of bigotry/discrimination on the part of transfolk. Unless they live in a very trans-positive place like San Francisco, many of them simply avoid health care situations altogether. There was a true case of a F-to-M who was refused care for ovarian cancer due to provider bias; he eventually died from the cancer with no real care to speak of. I hope this gives all of us pause....nurses are often on the front lines of social change...I think we can bring the compassion & humanity inherent in our profession to this issue & make a difference. Whether we LIKE the idea of transgenderism or not isn't the point.

As others have pointed out, you have a real chance to make a difference in your student's life, Nurse Cathy. I hope you will step up to the plate & educate yourself...I don't think you'll be sorry. PM me if you want some recommendations for good sites to check out.

BTW, I am not a professional gay rights advocate or anything like that...I've never even been to a gay rights march! I am just a mom & an ER nurse & an FNP who happens to be gay & who happens to feel pretty passionately about this topic. I found this thread in high gear my first time looking at this site a few days ago, and I was hooked. Keep up the good work. And I promise, my posts are not usually anywhere near this long!!!!!