to me, it's the ultimate measure of desperation on the part of nurses to develop independence from physicians. that it has been turned into a "science" demeans the nursing profession terribly!
while there can be certainly a psychological/placebo effect, the seriousness with which even some phd's in nursing believe in literal truth of therapeutic touch simply amazes me.
it's witchcraft. sheer absolute nonsense in its highest refined form. the techniques are quite laughable, and have no place in medicine, any more than folk remedies supplied by witch doctors.
yet at virtually every major university, there are ladies with phd's running around who literally believe they've developed these powers in their hands. that they can "ruffle" and "realign" forces.
to many, this is the holy grail of nursing. to me, it's delusionary.
You know how the brain gets a new idea? You know how cells repair themselves? How bones make blood? There is much more that we do not know than things that we truly know. I do not know how electricity gets into those little wires, how TV, radios, heck, how does the computer know where I clicked the mouse??
And as long as we are on stuff I don't know, what does NEO stand for in::wakeneo: ? Thanks.
precisely the point i'm making here is that science DOES KNOW how electricity gets into those little wires, how TV and radios work and even where the mouse is clicked. none of these things is magic. via the scientific method, we've worked our way to where these devices are part of our everday lives. it's called applied science. it might be a mystery to you, but these phenomena have been thoroughly explained by science. it's not mysticism when you flip on a light switch and the light comes on.
but TT? science don't know squat about how that works! we only know that experiments have shown that there is no cause and effect relationship between waving your hands over someone and a therapeutic response greater than a placebo effect. the conclusion is obvious that this therapy doesn't work and that a cause/effect relationship doesn't exist. in other words, the theory is invalid, and is thus NONSENSE.
it astounds me how tenaciously otherwise well educated nurses cling to this belief system. i can only conclude that there is a significant amount of self deception going on here. sure, it would be nice to be able to relieve pain. it would be nice to be an uber nurse who has special powers independent from medical science. but does that make it so? if you wave your hands sincerely enough, will it make it true?
it reminds me of a psych patient who believes that a delusionary fantasy is real. i further conclude that these nurses have a deep emotional need for this to be true, and will go to great lengths to protect this idea... including turning a blind eye to science. i don't know another word for this except mysticism and classification in the same catagory as witchcraft and voodoo.
My point was to answer a question you posed. "Western medicine is the number one killer? Right" Although, I do not know if it is the number one killer, it is at least in the top three.
Of course, I would not argue about diet and exercise being a problem but drugs are huge negative factor also. I do love science and have spent the last 9 years of my life studying it. We do not know exactly what each drug does, what effects it will have on someone, if it will create more disease, if it is creating highly resistant viruses and bacteria, if it is damaging human protein, or all the effects that is could have on DNA. That is not evidence; most medicine in my opinion is the best guess model.
The requirement are getting lower and lower. I need to find the article in Jama but if I am not mistaken a drug that shows 1% better than a placebo can be marketed even though the drug has the potential to create toxic effects in people and their environment and possible kill them.
Like you said, many people could live a healthier life by eating more fresh fruits and vegetables and exercising and in my opinion staying away from all drugs including OTCs unless absolutely necessary.
Sorry, I got off topic a little but I guess it is relevant.
Some medical death stats per year:
12,000 -- unnecessary surgery
7,000 -- medication errors in hospitals
20,000 -- other errors in hospitals
80,000 -- infections in hospitals
106,000 -- non-error, negative effects of drugs
These total to 225,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes!!
Does TT belong in a Grad program? If they can teach it in a manner that is objective and not simply subjective that can show repeatable results and high interpractitioner reliability, yes.
If it has been proven wrong by repeated, independent, unbiased, proper research then, no.
My point was to answer a question you posed. "Western medicine is the number one killer? Right" Although, I do not know if it is the number one killer, it is at least in the top three.
You guys make it sound like the smallpox and polio vaccines worked just because people had 'faith' in the placebo of such treatments.
I guess the anti-retroviruses that have plummeted AIDS deaths (where they are used) are 'placebos' that AIDS infected people needed to overcome the 'energy/spiritual' cause of their disease? If this is the case: QUICK! we need to get millions of 'penny per dose' sugar pills to Africa as a (wink wink) campaign to bring anti-retroviruses there.
I guess the consistent studies that show that an ACEI plus B-Blocker reduces risk of subsequent heart attack by half is just a PR campaign to get Americans hooked on useless drugs. . .
Or that it's a documented fact that the five yr survival rate after dx w/ certain cancers have improved ONE THOUSAND PERCENT over the last 50 yrs is a carefully orchestrated lie.
Same for the fact that the rate of death by childbirth since 1900 has dropped so far as to be negligble.
I could go on and on.
It's such a shame that 'evidenced based practices' are a world-wide sham perpetrated by the military industrial complex (wait, wrong conspiracy head), I mean the council on foreign relations and trilateral commission (oops, wrong again), I got it, the Pharmaceuticals. Yea, thats it.
But, isn't the point here to denounce science in order to place science on the same playing field as TT: unproven? And isn't this as a direct result of the fact that TT cannot rise to the point of science, because it is 'faith-based'?
So, targeting legitimate science is a necessary strategy to promote 'faith' as science? I just don't get that.
I believe STRONGLY in God. But, I'm glad my children are immunized. . . and those two thought processes are COMPLIMENTARY.
One thing we need to consider is that God...or someone...created the "mystic" peoples and gave them their gifts. Why do we think that we have the right to think that our gifts are superior?
EXACTLY.
You've made my point, but your view is so TT-centric that you can't see the overall relevance of your statement.
So, riddle me this: Why do you think that TT should be elevated as a 'superior' faith (err, 'gift') in nursing over MY BELIEFS?
Don't you see that if nursing incorporates ANY faith-based belief system into its core body of knowledge, the effect of doing so is the very incorporation of the arrogant elitism that you assert above?
Don't you see that if nursing incorporates ANY faith-based belief system into its core body of knowledge, the effect of doing so is the very incorporation of the arrogant elitism that you assert above?
You've made my point, but your view is so TT-centric that you can't see the overall relevance of your statement.
So, riddle me this: Why do you think that TT should be elevated as a 'superior' faith (err, 'gift') in nursing over MY BELIEFS?
Don't you see that if nursing incorporates ANY faith-based belief system into its core body of knowledge, the effect of doing so is the very incorporation of the arrogant elitism that you assert above?
~faith,
Timothy.
You and Traumahawk are the ones saying TT is faith based. I say it is based on physics. So, I am not going to agree with what you are arguing about.
And, I also believe in prayer. I believe it is a positive, healing energy force. And, I do not believe that only Christians own it. That could be considered arrogant elitism if that were the case.
I do not think that just because one believes in prayer that you can not also believe that TT works. They are not mutually exclusive except to folks who think one is bad and the other is good.
You and Trauma refuse to look at any studies which have been posted previously about energy based modalities. These studies exist and they are based on real science. Refusing to even look at these studies flys in the face of rational thinking. You quote one study done by an eleven year old girl refuting TT as a modality.
I think we are arguing for the hearts and minds of future nurses here. Some of them will be drawn to other modalities, not because there is anything wrong with them as nurses or future nurses. There is a paradigm shift occuring whether you acknowledge it or not. Medicine and energy based modalities do not need to cancel each other out. Both are needed. People are supporting integrative medicine with real dollars. You can choose to be a part of this. If you do not know much about it, you can investigate the studies, and then make up your mind. Or, you can refuse to even look, but it's your loss. At any rate, increasing numbers of people are looking for complementary and integrative physicians and practitioners, and supporting them.
You and Traumahawk are the ones saying TT is faith based. I say it is based on physics. So, I am not going to agree with what you are arguing about.
And, I also believe in prayer. I believe it is a positive, healing energy force. And, I do not believe that only Christians own it. That could be considered arrogant elitism if that were the case.
I do not think that just because one believes in prayer that you can not also believe that TT works. They are not mutually exclusive except to folks who think one is bad and the other is good.
You and Trauma refuse to look at any studies which have been posted previously about energy based modalities. These studies exist and they are based on real science. Refusing to even look at these studies flys in the face of rational thinking. You quote one study done by an eleven year old girl refuting TT as a modality.
I think we are arguing for the hearts and minds of future nurses here. Some of them will be drawn to other modalities, not because there is anything wrong with them as nurses or future nurses. There is a paradigm shift occuring whether you acknowledge it or not. Medicine and energy based modalities do not need to cancel each other out. Both are needed. People are supporting integrative medicine with real dollars. You can choose to be a part of this. If you do not know much about it, you can investigate the studies, and then make up your mind. Or, you can refuse to even look, but it's your loss. At any rate, increasing numbers of people are looking for complementary and integrative physicians and practioners, and supporting them.
My beliefs in Christian prayer would only be arrogant elitism if I tried to FORCE them on you, as is the case for making TT part of nursing's core knowledge.
I can show you studies that validate prayer. And MY BRAND of prayer declares that TT is satanic occultism. NO, don't defend against that. I'm entitled to THAT belief even as I concede that YOU are entitled to a different belief on the topic.
So, if TT is part of nursing's core knowledge, I demand that prayer also be taught from the viewpoint that it SCIENTIFICALLY INVALIDATES TT.
Just because you CALL something science doesn't make it so. Science has a high level of standards. This is why evolution is a THEORY and not a SCIENTIFIC LAW: it cannot contradict another law to be a law itself and it actually contradicts 3 of them.
In fact, it is PRECISELY because TT cannot measure up to those high standards that a key element of its belief is to trash those very standards. At the precise moment you vy to be a member of the 'science club', you trash its members as 'geeks'. Hmmmmmmmm.
It is faith-based because it cannot pass the hurdle of established science.
It doesn't belong in the study of science - something nursing NEEDS to be. That's not to say, just like my prayer, that it can't be an adjunct to your bedside care. But lets leave those adjuncts to our individual practitioners instead of trying to flounder in some divisive concept of :
"MY BELIEFS TRUMP YOURS.", "MY BELIEFS ARE MORE SCIENTIFIC THAN YOURS."
In fact, it is PRECISELY because TT cannot measure up to those high standards that a key element of its belief is to trash those very standards. At the precise moment you vy to be a member of the 'science club', you trash its members as 'geeks'. Hmmmmmmmm. Posted by Zashagalka.
No one is saying that a key element of TT belief is to trash scientific standards. I never said it. And, I would never call anyone who believed in science a geek. I believe in science, Tim. And, I believe the studies on energy based modalities are valid. They are based on valid research. Rational thinking would suggest a look at those studies.
Those stats are from the Journal of the American Medical Association not from my personal belief system library. Of course, I would never say nor did I say that all medicine is unnecessary.
I would like to see the articles that you got the statistics from. I would like to read the one about ACE inhibitors.
PS. Is science subjective or objective? Is it repeatable or non-repeatable? Now look at what I said about TT and it being in a grad program.
is this a recqurid class you have to take or is it consdered an elective ? trumahawk99
I'm was embarrassed to read in my local paper a line under a photograph re: graduates studying "holistic nursing" touching each other in a classroom setting. TT does not belong in nursing classes because there is nothing nursing brings to the batting mound to distinguish this practice as something necessary to any nursing practice. What critical skills of nursing to we need to practice this. Why can't I just teach it to housekeeping since I haven't seen that it requires any base of knowledge except "Quantum physics?" Then why not require quantum physics as a prereq. Just because the public demands a service doesn't mean that WE have to provide it. People want their tongues split - should medicine step forward and start doing these procedures?
traumahawk99
596 Posts
precisely the point i'm making here is that science DOES KNOW how electricity gets into those little wires, how TV and radios work and even where the mouse is clicked. none of these things is magic. via the scientific method, we've worked our way to where these devices are part of our everday lives. it's called applied science. it might be a mystery to you, but these phenomena have been thoroughly explained by science. it's not mysticism when you flip on a light switch and the light comes on.
but TT? science don't know squat about how that works! we only know that experiments have shown that there is no cause and effect relationship between waving your hands over someone and a therapeutic response greater than a placebo effect. the conclusion is obvious that this therapy doesn't work and that a cause/effect relationship doesn't exist. in other words, the theory is invalid, and is thus NONSENSE.
it astounds me how tenaciously otherwise well educated nurses cling to this belief system. i can only conclude that there is a significant amount of self deception going on here. sure, it would be nice to be able to relieve pain. it would be nice to be an uber nurse who has special powers independent from medical science. but does that make it so? if you wave your hands sincerely enough, will it make it true?
it reminds me of a psych patient who believes that a delusionary fantasy is real. i further conclude that these nurses have a deep emotional need for this to be true, and will go to great lengths to protect this idea... including turning a blind eye to science. i don't know another word for this except mysticism and classification in the same catagory as witchcraft and voodoo.
for the profession, this is a terrible shame!