The National Health Service - how do other countries provide care???

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I went to visit my 93year old grandmother today. One of her carers told her the doctor would be visiting later. She gets confused and immediately started worrying that she didn't have enough money to pay the Doctor. We reassured her but it got me thinking about the UK's system of health care.

On July the 5th 1948 the UK government introduced a system of health care that was free to all dependent only on citizenship. Care was unlimited and treatment was on diagnosis rather than financial means. The UK at that point desperately needed change as disease was rife and the poor were dependent on the charity of some doctors or worse still the workhouse. Hospital care was refunded but had to be paid upfront.

The NHS has not been without it's problem's primarily because it is chronically short of cash but 60years later it does mean that any patient regardless of age, financial status, employment etc will receive equal care on the basis of diagnosis.

I realise that worldwide there are many differences. I recently had a fantastic American patient in the UK on holiday - he had chest pains so needed, baseline assessment, chest xray, bloods, ECG and a doctor's consultation all of which as an emergency are free which he couldn't believe. On the flip side I went to India recently and although hospital care is free patients need to pay for medication and the cost of this often is prohibititive meaning that the mortality rate amongst the poor remains unacceptably high.

I would be so interested to hear of how other countries provide health care and what works about these systems and also what doesn't. Maybe we can come up with a worldwide effective system that promotes equality and inclusion :)

In Canada, there are several ways to complain. Families do it all the time. For the least thing. They complain to the Unit Manager, the Services Manager, the Provincial Health Service, the rant in the media, the file complaints with the governing bodies of doctors, nurses, physios. They will find a way.

Yes, they threaten to sue us. My practice permit is issued with 2millCDN$ . In the last decade, I've never seen a nurse sued. I've heard of a couple of successful malpractice cases against surgeons (but then who hasn't). There is one particular case under litigation in my hospital that will be laughed out of court. We document and document, and then we document some more. Families behaviours, patient's non-compliance with care/meds/physios.

The sense of entitlement is there. But push comes to shove, they realize that they couldn't get the care they get here in the US for what they pay for it up here. I had a patient pull the "I wish I'd gone to Arizona for my surgery". I asked them how much medical insurance they had. Only the provincial plan. Hmm, they had no clue how much health insurance costs down south, when we told them how much the montly fee was, they quit their whining.

What does bother me are the patients who go to the US or Mexico for their surgery. They come home with post op complications and we the taxpayers have to pay to fix the damage. Why on earth anyone would thing having bariatric surgery on vacation was a good idea I'll never know.

Specializes in M/S, MICU, CVICU, SICU, ER, Trauma, NICU.
I'm not in the UK or personally familiar with the NHS -- just what I've read about it, and healthcare delivery systems in other countries are a long-standing interest of mine (so I've read quite a bit) -- so someone who knows more about this, please feel free to step in and take over ...

BUT --

My understanding of the NHS system and NICE is that NICE has nothing to do with any individual and the treatment s/he does or doesn't receive -- NICE makes decisions for the entire NHS system of what treatments and procedures have been proven effective and are therefore available within the NHS system, and which treatments or procedures the NHS will not offer because they have been shown to be ineffective. It is entirely between the individual and her/his physician what treatment someone does or doesn't get of the treatment options available within the NHS system.

It sounds to me like you're trying to turn this into a Palinesque "death panel" scenario, but that's not what it's about. It's about the NHS doing what they can to ensure that taxpayer money is not being spent on treatment that has been shown to be ineffective in general, across the board -- not that it's not cost-effective or worthwhile to provide a particular treatment to a particular individual.

Let's get something straight. I'm not trying to do anything. I'm trying to get clarification--so don't go there. If NICE has the ultimate say so, a patient DOESN'T have options. None. Nada. Nothing.

If the treatment is not supported, then the individual has NO CHOICE about it, unless he or she has the money to leave the country and go elsewhere. Is this the case?

Because this is what your last statement seems to imply to me.

Specializes in neurology, cardiology, ED.
If the treatment is not supported, then the individual has NO CHOICE about it, unless he or she has the money to leave the country and go elsewhere. Is this the case?

Because this is what your last statement seems to imply to me.

How is that worse than our system here? If my insurance company decides that my life isn't worth the cost of a procedure, and I don't have the money to pay out of pocket I don't get the procedure. Seems like the same thing to me.

Specializes in M/S, MICU, CVICU, SICU, ER, Trauma, NICU.
How is that worse than our system here? If my insurance company decides that my life isn't worth the cost of a procedure, and I don't have the money to pay out of pocket I don't get the procedure. Seems like the same thing to me.

It sounds like the same thing to me too.

So NHS isn't that much more attractive me than the system here.

The major differences are that NICE has a big hold on financing--seems they also "limit" newer, unexamined technologies because--let's face--they're all in trials and big $$$$$--not proven. Not so sure I would want that kind of limitation.

You might want to follow the link:

http://www.nice.org.uk/

Read and learn.

Specializes in Advanced Practice, surgery.
Here is my question then:

If the case is that medical treatment WOULDN'T extend an individual's life more than a few months-- and the evidence show that is the most ONE can get from it--will it still be offered, if the cost outweighs the benefits? Will NICE say no based on statistics alone? Or do they consider other factors?

If that is the case, who gets to say to the family that their parent/sibling/son/daughter isn't worthy of that treatment? Who gets to pull the ethical card for this?

I hate to quote Sarah Palin because she is not exactly the best resource of this type of dilemma, but it sounds very "DEATH-PANELLY." to me.

I can understand your concerns completely, so I will try to explain how it works.

In your scenario, if that treatment had been proven to extend life for a few months in a number of cases, and has good quality evidence to support it then yes it would be offered, remember NICE offer recommendations, if your treating physician feels that they do not want to follow the guidance then they can prescribe it. There are a few cases where this can be overturned, which will be the ones you have seen in the news, and this would be decided by the chief medical officer, and pharmacy advisor to the health board. Yes it does happen but not as often as the media would have you think.

You also asked in a previous post how are we dealt with if we don't meet targets, we are fined which takes even more money away from patient care. Also you said about the 18 week wait, if you had a virus then that would be treated as an emergency, you'd see your GP and if you needed urgent treatment you'd be seen very quickly. However if you have biliary colic and are waiting to see a surgeon about a lap chole then your going to have to wait that time, if your in pain and suffering then your GP can list you as urgent which means your care gets expedited but it's still a long time to be in pain, with this I absolutely agree with you

Someone also asked about complaints, our patients complain and they are listened to. We have something called the patients charter which is at every bedside with details of how and who to complain to. The complaints are dealt with locally initially to gain resolution but if this fails it is taken to the ombudsman (who is independent from the NHS hospitals) who look at the complaint and the response and then tell us what we need to do to improve. When I worked as a senior nurse I spent most of my time dealing with complaints and responding to them, changing practice and implementing policies as a result of them.

Jo I agree with you, the NHS has major flaws, and in your shoes I would probably feel the same but I have no understanding of how healthcare in the US works, just what I hear in the news about patients who can't afford treatment, people die because they have been refused cancer treatments because it's not in their insurance policy exactly as you have heard horror stories about the NHS

You mentioned "Non profit hospital" and Magnet status, could you explain a little more about these please and what they mean for you as a nurse and your patients.

Also I have no idea how medicare works if someone could explain that I'd be grateful.

Also how your emergency services work, if you pitch up to the emergency unit, are you treated then payment sorted out or do you have to prove that you can pay, or have insurance to be treated. I know these may seem like idiot questions but I really have no idea

The major differences are that NICE has a big hold on financing--seems they also "limit" newer, unexamined technologies because--let's face--they're all in trials and big $$$$$--not proven. Not so sure I would want that kind of limitation.

Again, this is exactly what the private insurance companies do in the US -- routinely refuse to pay for expensive treatments that are "experimental." You already have "that kind of limitation" here.

Specializes in M/S, MICU, CVICU, SICU, ER, Trauma, NICU.
Again, this is exactly what the private insurance companies do in the US -- routinely refuse to pay for expensive treatments that are "experimental." You already have "that kind of limitation" here.

Actually, no we don't--I don't know about your end of the world, but not here. Our not-for-profit hospital funds our vascular institute and we are doing some incredible, incredible, OFF the GRID things. It's amazing. Physicians from all over the world are learning techniques here because we are able to do new "experimental", but SAFE things.

So...it doesn't apply to where I am. Perhaps where you are.

Not here.

Specializes in Emergency & Trauma/Adult ICU.
Actually, no we don't--I don't know about your end of the world, but not here. Our not-for-profit hospital funds our vascular institute and we are doing some incredible, incredible, OFF the GRID things. It's amazing. Physicians from all over the world are learning techniques here because we are able to do new "experimental", but SAFE things.

So...it doesn't apply to where I am. Perhaps where you are.

Not here.

JoPACURN, I don't doubt the commitment of your vascular institute. However, with the exception of very small numbers of patients enrolled in very select clinical trials and privately funded programs ... the amazing techniques are likely being provided only to patients who can PAY, or whose insurance has agreed to PAY.

Because we have worked for large employers, my spouse and I have had relatively affordable access to "Cadillac health insurance" for our entire adult lives. We have each once been denied coverage for a procedure or test ... and we are both healthy without any chronic conditions. If you are purporting that the current US system of health insurance provided largely through employers does not restrict access to care -- I must respectfully disagree.

I find it very worthwhile to always remember the economic basics about insurance. The insurance industry exists to attempt to quantify the risk of loss of a valuable asset. Insurance firms collect premiums as a hedge against possible future payouts. The profit in the business is to collect more in premiums than is paid out. This works pretty well for tangible assets like property, and even less tangible "assets" like an individual's life.

It does not work so well for health care -- one of the best ways to avoid catastrophic health care costs is to utilize health care for primary care, diagnostic screening, and management of chronic conditions. This basic concept illustrates perfectly, albeit simply, why the concept of "health insurance" is bound to ultimately fail. The out of pocket cost of even basic preventative and acute care is out of reach for many American consumers. What we are seeking in "health insurance" is not insurance at all, just a way around having to pay completely out of pocket at the time that care is needed.

Speaking generally, health insurance companies are not being deliberately evil when they deny coverage -- they are simply carrying out the stated intent of their business.

Actually, no we don't--I don't know about your end of the world, but not here. Our not-for-profit hospital funds our vascular institute and we are doing some incredible, incredible, OFF the GRID things. It's amazing. Physicians from all over the world are learning techniques here because we are able to do new "experimental", but SAFE things.

So...it doesn't apply to where I am. Perhaps where you are.

Not here.

Your hospital may be offering all kinds of wonderful, exotic, "OFF the GRID" procedures, but that doesn't mean that most people's insurance coverage will pay for them. US insurance companies have routinely, for many years, gotten out of paying for people's treatment by claiming that it's "experimental." There is usually fine print in the insurance policy paperwork that specifically states that they will not pay for any experimental treatments -- and they define "experimental" as broadly as possible.

Specializes in Advanced Practice, surgery.

Can I try to get this thread back on track, it's about how other countries provide care and I don't even understand the basics of how US healthcare works. Could someone please answer these questions for a start to help me and others who are not in the US understand

You mentioned "Non profit hospital" and Magnet status, could you explain a little more about these please and what they mean for you as a nurse and your patients.

Also I have no idea how medicare works if someone could explain that I'd be grateful.

Also how your emergency services work, if you pitch up to the emergency unit, are you treated then payment sorted out or do you have to prove that you can pay, or have insurance to be treated. I know these may seem like idiot questions but I really have no idea

Also I know we have members from other countries, the Philippines, India, other European countries, how do you all provide care?

Can I try to get this thread back on track, it's about how other countries provide care and I don't even understand the basics of how US healthcare works. Could someone please answer these questions for a start to help me and others who are not in the US understand

"You mentioned "Non profit hospital" and Magnet status, could you explain a little more about these please and what they mean for you as a nurse and your patients.

Also I have no idea how medicare works if someone could explain that I'd be grateful.

Also how your emergency services work, if you pitch up to the emergency unit, are you treated then payment sorted out or do you have to prove that you can pay, or have insurance to be treated. I know these may seem like idiot questions but I really have no idea"

Also I know we have members from other countries, the Philippines, India, other European countries, how do you all provide care?

I apologize for my part in going OT. Here is how these things work in the US:

For the most part, healthcare in the US is treated as a business like most any other. Hospitals are either "for-profit" or "non-profit," which is mostly about tax status. "For-profit" hospitals pay property taxes on their land and facilities and corporate income taxes on the profits they make, and they are traded on the stock market and have shareholders who make money (they hope!) from owning stock in the company that operates the hospital. "Non-profit" hospitals still have to bring in more money over the course of a year than they spend, or they'll go out of business :), but they are exempted from paying taxes on their property and facilities in return for providing more services to the community and putting any extra money they end up with back into the facility or into community service. Also, they do not pay dividends to stockholders (they don't trade shares on the stock exchange). Many non-profit hospitals are operated by religious denominations, universities, and other kinds of charitable groups, or are paid for and run by the community (city or county) in which they are located. Non-profit hospitals operate to provide a service to the community; for-profit hospitals, by definition, operate to turn a profit for their shareholders first and foremost, and delivering healthcare is just their mechanism for doing that. Whether a hospital is for-profit or non-profit doesn't make a great deal of difference to people receiving care there (probably, most people receiving services in a hospital aren't even aware of whether it's a for-profit or non-profit facility); it may or may not make a lot of difference to people working there. There are some threads on this site discussing folks' opinions about and experiences of working for the for-profit hospital chains.

"Magnet" status is a voluntary accreditation offered by the American Nurses Credentialing Center, a division of the American Nurses Association that also offers many of the specialty certifications for individual nurses in the US. Meeting the standards and getting the "Magnet" designation is supposed to mean that the facility is providing a highly desirable working environment for nurses (i.e., it's a "magnet" for nurses in the area :)), but, in "real life," it may or may not mean much. Now that "Magnet" accreditation is being seen by hospitals as a great marketing tool, lots of facilities are "going through the motions" and jumping through the hoops necessary to meet the standards just long enough to get the 5-year accreditation, and then going right back to "business as usual."

Medicare is a single-payer system (like the Canadian system), run by the Federal government, for the elderly and disabled. Everyone pays taxes (withheld from their paychecks) into the Medicare program, and, at age 65, most people become eligible for Medicare -- and those who are permanently disabled become eligible for Medicare two years after becoming permanently disabled -- and Medicare pays for their healthcare needs (they are able to choose the physicians and facilities of their choice). Most of the people who are on Medicare are very happy with the program, compared to how the rest of us feel about our healthcare coverage (if we even have any ...). It was started up decades ago because the private insurance companies didn't want to cover the elderly (so the Federal government stepped in). You may also have encountered the term "Medicaid" (different from Medicare) in discussions of US healthcare. Medicaid is a program that is a joint venture between the Federal government and the individual US states that is supposed to be providing healthcare coverage for the poor. The Federal government chips in part of the money, and the state chips in part of the money, and the state gets to decide what requirements/limits to set for coverage (within some general, minimum guidelines established by the Federal government). Because so many states are in serious financial trouble for a number of years now (and that's just getting worse), the Medicaid programs in many states are in serious trouble, and only able to cover a limited number of the people who need coverage.

The Federal government has passed laws that require emergency departments to evaluate anyone who presents and stabilize emergency conditions, and they are not allowed to delay treatment in order to find out how you are going to pay for it (these laws were passed because, back in the day, many hospitals used to refuse to treat people until they found out whether or not you could afford treatment, and, if you couldn't, they'd put you back in the ambulance and ship you to another hospital). However, that does not mean the care is free! You will get billed for the care, unpaid bills will be turned over to collection agencies, and, if you have any assets (house to seize, wages to garnish), those can be taken by a court to pay for your hospital bills. And it does not mean that EDs are required to treat non-emergency conditions (more and more EDs are starting to turn those people away). If you get brought in to the ED in a really bad way (e.g., via ambulance, seriously injured), you will get treated before anyone asks how you're going to pay. If you have to wait in the ED because you're not a high priority, they will go ahead and ask for your insurance card or how you plan to pay while you're waiting anyway, because doing that is not delaying your treatment.

This is just a v. casual, basic overview, but I hope it's helpful. I would be glad to respond to any other specific questions. :)

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