The future of nursing. Everybody is impacted. Big discussion in SK.

magnoliya · Sep 24, 2014

do not worry about the taxes and the economy. all money paid to nurses are spent back in Canada. The more money paid, the more money spent. this way our economy is alive. it is called monetarism.

a lot of different professions are paid more than nurses. I do not think that nurses are the least important. We work nights, we work under the stress, we have academic degrees. I do not see reason not to be paid in a decent way. By the way our wages grow only to keep up with the inflation. So limit for wages does not exist. It is clear to me that somebody is trying to save some money on me and throw away my education. No way? I would recommend them to go and look for money in another place.

The more you yell that "there is a limit to how much the taxpayer can accept" the more you help government who tries to the Cut staffing to the bare bones. My future is your future too. At least in the good all days you could go and study to become an RN and get better salary. In the near future you might not have this opportunity anymore. As well in the near future you probably will be replaced by SCA.

joanna73, BSN, RN · Sep 24, 2014

The Ministry of Health is instrumental in encouraging these debates because their mandate is cost savings. Replace RNS with LPNS and LPNS with health care aides. Cut staffing to the bare bones which is the real issue if you want to talk safe patient care, but instead the higher ups disguise all of this through the RN/ LPN debate.

The government does not intend to support health care. We are moving to a two tiered system. That's the real issue.

Perhaps some of these CEOs and politicians might consider reducing their salaries. In a publicly funded health care system, there's no reason why they should be paid 5-800 thousand a year. The RNS are not bleeding the system. We work for our wages. LPNS? If their scope is increasing, they should be compensated as well. LPNS are underpaid IMO.

magnoliya · Sep 24, 2014

sorry I did not quite understand. how does the debate help government?

LPNs should resist the change.

First of all more responsibility with the same tools to deal with the responsibility

Second - same pay

Third - they will not be able to grow any more. They could go and become RNs. But now, since RNs are being replaced by LPNs, they do not have this opportunity anymore.

Young LPNs think about your future. Play long term. do not be short sighted. RN program has a lot to offer as well as increase in your pay.

Old LPNs (experienced LPNs) why do you need this change?

joanna73, BSN, RN · Sep 24, 2014

From the way you express yourself in your posts, it seems as though English is your second language. I'm guessing that you're relatively new to Canada and unaware of the history of nursing.

We could discuss this issue forever here. I suggest you do a search of this site and a search on the Internet to educate yourself further. Google something along the lines of "Nursing layoffs in Canada in the 1990's" and "Nursing workforce transformation".

Unfortunately, we can't just resist the government, despite the fact that most positions are unionized. The budgets are determined and each health authority must work within their budget.

magnoliya · Sep 24, 2014

we can write letters to our MPs. we are encouraged to write letters here in SK. We can consider different parties when we vote. and we can help to shape public opinion.

Mewsin · Sep 24, 2014

All money being spent on healthcare does not stay here, that is false. I personally work with nurses who have immigrated here and send money back to their home countries. So yes, economies are doing better but not necessarily the Canadian economy.

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · Sep 24, 2014

we can write letters to our MPs

You do understand that MPs (Members of Parliament) are federal representatives and that health care is a provincially-administered program with responsibility to meet the standards laid out in the Canada Health Act, right? MPs don't involve themselves with provincial government concerns- it's outside their purview. As joanna73 said in her post, the province determines the budget for health care, as it does for education, infrastructure, supports for seniors and many other departments. The province dictates what money will be spent on health care, not the federal government. So writing to an MP will maybe meet a need a person has for complaining, but it won't result in any action on their behalf. If you want to be politically active at the PROVINCIAL level you need to get acquainted with your MLA (Member of the Legislative Assembly). The caveat to that is if your MLA is a member of the party in power (the Saskatchewan Party has a majority government) you'll most likely get a form letter explaining the government's position and a nice little pat on the head. At least that's how it works in Alberta, Manitoba and every other province I've lived in as an adult.

You also mentioned voting and considering different parties at election time so as to present that as a threat. Are you eligible to vote in Saskatchewan? Since the next Saskatchewan election isn't likely to be held before November 2015 at the very earliest, this matter will already have been concluded and the current party in power will have moved on to other issues. People don't have memories so long that they're going to even have this issue on their radar at election time in sufficient numbers for the Saskatchewan Party and Brad Wall to worry about. You need to come up with much more convincing arguments than that it might have a negative impact on your income; that's not going to get their attention at all.

CanadianGirl79 · Sep 25, 2014

I come to forums like this to find solutions to problems(mostly my problems). I do not have time for anything else. We collected 3000 signatures in a few days and will have our meeting soon. I think RNs in other provinces should ring the same bell very loudly!
You can tell me all you want about your education, I just now that my education is twice as long.
Now NotReady4PrimeTime. of course, you will not see in "Proposed Amendments to SALPN Regulatory Bylaws document"that LPNs are going to replace RNs. It is not a labor agreement but a regulatory Bylaws document. You are saying that "There are still a number of nursing functions that do not fall under any of the described specialized care" wait and see, this will be in the next Regulatory Bylaws document. Do not you see where it all goes? Now situation is different from the cyclical events you described in one of your posts because they want to change the DNA of nursing.
I would like to quote ED of SALPN Nair.
"Nair said LPNs are not adding new roles for themselves but simply spelling out more clearly what they already do at various locations around the province.“We're not changing practice. We're changing the bylaws,”
Please correct if I'm wrong but this is how I understand the situation.
It looks like some LPNs in different locations(various locations) unofficially do some duties. Why unofficially?- because they do it without the support of their bylaws. Now, because some LPNs performed some duties, all LPNs need to be rewarded with new privileges.
Nothing of what is going on seems to be fair or professional. It is called "privileges". RNs earned their privileges by studying longer. How it is fair that people with different education, will have about the same privileges.
Safety issue : since you fiona59 is not an RN you probably cannot see patients care from RN point of view. I cannot even begin to explain. If you go and complete your education you will understand. 2 extra years in university teach you to think differently. Just about anybody can give IV in push. However we do not give this permission to just anybody. I applaud to LPNs who do not want these additional duties- they understand responsibility.

I am both an RPN and an RN. Honestly I feel like I graduated with a degree in paper writing more than anything else. We didn't have a lot of clinical placements, and had no skills classes because there were no new skills to learn.

As an RPN, I practiced autonomously. I did not run my care decisions by an RN, as my college recognized me as capable of making my own decisions. The RPN program is the old RN diploma program. Yes, there is less theory, less discussion of research and its implementation in the workplace, as well as less leadership discussion. However, there is plenty of patient care and practice.

A degree doesn't automatically give someone the ability to recognize when a patient is going south. Experience does that. Patients IRL don't often look "textbook" and regardless of how long you have studied, it is only after actually being out there doing it, and taking care of patients that it really "clicks".

Much of what SK is proposing seems to be just bringing them in line with how things already are in other provinces. For example, in Ontario RPNs can give IV push. Not all meds, but many.

To say that a practical nurse "probably cannot see patients care from RN point of view" comes across as terribly condescending.

joanna73, BSN, RN · Sep 25, 2014

If everyone could recognize that both skill sets are valuable, that would be ideal. There are some great LPNS and RNS, and one is not superior.

By the way, I'm precepting a fourth year RN student who is set to graduate in December. It's scary where her level of knowledge is and she can't write either. So the argument that RNS have more education is valid, but it depends on what they've learned during that period. You can't make a blanket statement that RNS have more education and therefore we are safer providers of patient care. It depends on many factors.

More importantly, if LPNS are not safe, why would they be utilized at all? We're both licensed professionals. Where I would question safety is with the replacing of nursing with health care aides. They have minimal education and no accountability because there's no licensing body mandating their work.

AnonymousLPN · Sep 29, 2014

If you go and complete your education you will understand. 2 extra years in university teach you to think differently.

Just curious...I have six years of university education (non-nursing) and I am an LPN. So where do I fit in in terms of "2 extra years in university teach you to think differently"? As I have six years, does that mean I am an LPN who thinks like an RN? Or do I just think differently?

On a serious note... as I see it my province is broke. So are most of the other provinces. We are so deep in debt, it can never realistically be paid off. Additionally, we have an aging population with fewer people to pay the bill for the services required by the older generations. These older generations are living longer and using more services during their retirement years (they are pay less taxes into the system during those retirement years). The bills keep piling up with and those of us working and paying taxes are reaching the point where we simply are maxed out in the amount of taxes we pay. Something has to give.

As such, health care services will be reduced and health care workers will be cut and paid less. It is a reality. It sucks for all of us. RNs are currently at the top of the nursing pay scale so they will be hit hardest with the LPNs gradually seeing the effects as well.

It would be nice if the politicians had the ethics to cut their own salaries, benefits, retirements, and perks first. However, we all know that ain't gonna happen. When we fight each other, the politicians laugh while further lining their own pockets at our expense. If you really want to make changes; if you really want to secure the future for RNs as well as LPNs then as nurses we should be banding together to demand politicians make honest and responsible choices and stretch our health care dollars in the most effective and efficient manor.

vintage_RN, BSN, RN · Sep 30, 2014

I'm an RPN in university to become an RN, and the professors keep drilling into our head, "you need to think like an RN!"...I honestly don't even know what that means. They keep talking about this HUGE gap in knowledge between an RN and RPN and talk to us like we only know the bare basics. I use critical thinking every day with my patients, and critical thinking comes with experience in the field. All I feel I've learned so far is super hard anatomy that feels like it's at a medical school level (think cellular anatomy and biochemistry), and how to find scholarly research articles. Maybe I will feel like I'm at a totally different level by the end of it, but I'm not seeing it right now.

CanadianGirl79 · Sep 30, 2014

I'm an RPN in university to become an RN, and the professors keep drilling into our head, "you need to think like an RN!"...I honestly don't even know what that means. They keep talking about this HUGE gap in knowledge between an RN and RPN and talk to us like we only know the bare basics. I use critical thinking every day with my patients, and critical thinking comes with experience in the field. All I feel I've learned so far is super hard anatomy that feels like it's at a medical school level (think cellular anatomy and biochemistry), and how to find scholarly research articles. Maybe I will feel like I'm at a totally different level by the end of it, but I'm not seeing it right now.

Vintage, are you at Mac?