The bachelor degree frustration

fergus51 · Feb 27, 2004

egg-pei,

some of us want to see nurses' education at the BSN level and we aren't instructors out to protect our jobs. You just have to go through one contract dispute where the letters to the editor overwhelmingly read "Why do nurses think they should get so much money? They don't even have degrees!" and you'll start to think about it a little differently. Like it or not, a Bachelor's degree is becoming increasingly important in most fields, and nurses can't be immune to that. Formal education is valued. It doesn't mean you'll be better prepared for the floor necessarily, but imho, no new nurse is. I honestly can't tell who has a degree and who doesn't at work.

It doesn't mean that diploma nurses are lesser or not as good as nurses with degrees, they are equals and I think it's misleading for people imply otherwise. And if this does nothing but rid the province of that stupid rivalry I think it'll be worth it. It sucks that new nurses don't have as much choice as far as how they become nurses, but that's true of most professions.

littlefeet · Apr 7, 2004

As far as I knew, it's BC, Ontario and PEI that require the BSN.

Saskatchewan has also required a BSN since 2001. I think a BSN is the minimum education level that an RN needs. The diploma program doesn't provide tools for sound critical thinking and praxis. If we want to be respected and treated like our other healthcare counterparts then we need to have degrees. :nurse:

camay1221_RN · Apr 7, 2004

Saskatchewan has also required a BSN since 2001. I think a BSN is the minimum education level that an RN needs. The diploma program doesn't provide tools for sound critical thinking and praxis. If we want to be respected and treated like our other healthcare counterparts then we need to have degrees.

I don't know what the diploma and degree programs are like in Saskatchewan, but I don't believe it is the degree, that makes a nurse a 'sound critical thinker'. I graduated from the best diploma program in the area I live in. The clinical experiences I received far surpassed those of some of my friends who went through the BSN program through the universities.

I have been very fortunate to work with other RN's who don't care whether you have the BSN behind your name or not. We are all RN's, and we all respect each other and the differences in the educational paths we chose to take. I have worked with RN's who are BSN graduates, and I wouldn't let some of them within 10 feet of me or my family members when it came to providing care to us.

Does not being a BSN graduate limit me in finding a job as an RN? Absolutely not! It does, however, limit some aspects of nursing I may want to pursue in the future. But the beauty of it is, I will always have the opportunity to go back and complete by BSN, and I have all these years of clinical experience under my belt.

I'm sorry if I sound like a rag about this! I don't mean to be, but it is a little frustrating to hear generalizations about the diploma program. Please accept my apologies if I have offended anyone!

littlefeet · Apr 7, 2004

I don't know what the diploma and degree programs are like in Saskatchewan, but I don't believe it is the degree, that makes a nurse a 'sound critical thinker'. I graduated from the best diploma program in the area I live in. The clinical experiences I received far surpassed those of some of my friends who went through the BSN program through the universities.
I have been very fortunate to work with other RN's who don't care whether you have the BSN behind your name or not. We are all RN's, and we all respect each other and the differences in the educational paths we chose to take. I have worked with RN's who are BSN graduates, and I wouldn't let some of them within 10 feet of me or my family members when it came to providing care to us.
Does not being a BSN graduate limit me in finding a job as an RN? Absolutely not! It does, however, limit some aspects of nursing I may want to pursue in the future. But the beauty of it is, I will always have the opportunity to go back and complete by BSN, and I have all these years of clinical experience under my belt.
I'm sorry if I sound like a rag about this! I don't mean to be, but it is a little frustrating to hear generalizations about the diploma program. Please accept my apologies if I have offended anyone!

Point well taken. I didn't mean to offend.

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · Apr 7, 2004

Critical thinking cannot be taught. It comes with experience. I have worked with some degreed nurses who wouldn't know enough to come in out of the rain. Nursing skills however, must be taught. When my son was sick and spending most of his early childhood in hospital, I found it easy to pick out the university educated nurses. They were the ones who needed someone to show them how to perform basic nursing skills. Fifteen years later, I'm not noticing much difference. How can someone be an RN for a year and a half and never have d/c'd a Foley? True story. "Well, I know the theory..." she said.

littlefeet · Apr 7, 2004

Critical thinking cannot be taught. It comes with experience. I have worked with some degreed nurses who wouldn't know enough to come in out of the rain. Nursing skills however, must be taught. When my son was sick and spending most of his early childhood in hospital, I found it easy to pick out the university educated nurses. They were the ones who needed someone to show them how to perform basic nursing skills. Fifteen years later, I'm not noticing much difference. How can someone be an RN for a year and a half and never have d/c'd a Foley? True story. "Well, I know the theory..." she said.

like I said before.....point well taken

nursesarah · Apr 7, 2004

just thought i'd put my $.02 worth in. i am part of the Mohawk-McMaster Collaborative nursing program. more specifically, i am registered through mohawk college. up until this point hospitals would always hire mohawk-trained nurses over mac nurses bc of our skills training. i thought that would change with this new degree program. guess what? it didn't. we still kept all our mohawk clinical instructors and the floor nurses always comment on the big difference there is between our skills and the mac nurses in the same level.

it's not so much the whole degree thing. i actually like it. i mean, i understand why i'm supposed to give or do something as opposed to just how. this helps me to better explain procedures to pts. but the fact is, for something like clinical, who would you rather have as your instructor, someone who has sat behind a computer for 10+ years working on a PhD or someone who has been a floor nurse for 20 yrs?

JMP · Apr 7, 2004

I guess I am one of the lucky ones, who graduated from a three year diploma program and now working on my degree- will finish by BSN in December of this year. Lucky only in regard that I can speak to both sides of this so-called debate.

I have to say, however, this whole topic is so frustrating and so unfortuately typical of the nursing profession.......and sad.

Horizontal violence is a term that I have come to know and understand. It is a term that relates to nursing and the oppression of nurses. For many years nurses have been oppressed...... going back 50-40 years--- up to present day. Now finally, in the last decade or so...nursing is starting to get out from under the oppression, in some areas. We are a professsional body, with professional standards. However, for nurses who trained under the oppression, it becomes such a part of us, we often don't realize we use the oppression towards ourselves and others in our own profession.

We need to wake up....come on nurses..... understand we are all in this together, BSN is entry to practice here in Ontario, let's deal with it, SUPPORT each other. If someone is lacking in clinical skills, help them, talk to them, support their learning needs.....no eye rolling, tongue clicking, talking behind backs, using phrases like "I can't belieive it, they---bla bla bla". I have done these same things, not proud of it.

However, we need to stop blaming others, looking for a reason not to do something or support someone, it is the one and only way nursing can pull up from the pit of the on-gong "who is better at what" arguments that continue with no purpose.

globalRN · Apr 10, 2004

Experience comes on the job.

Many if not most nursing procedures are not that difficult to follow after reading a procedure manual.

The important things to learn are the basic principles to guide your care and where to find the information you need.

As a RN, I graduated without ever putting in a foley catheter. When it came time to do one, it was straightforward....just know your sterile technique and other principles( anatomy etc). After that, worked in a job where we did many many catherizations for both men and women. No big deal at all.

Same with NG tubes....when I needed to put one in, it was a cinch. And yeah, as a matter of fact I was not only a RN but a clinical nursing instructor...it just so happened that I had never had the opportunity in 11+ years of nursing till then to put in a NG tube.

I don't believe a student has to have an opportunity in a clinical setting to perform every nursing procedure in the book before graduation....nice if it happens but not necessary. Teaching problemsolving is just as important.

angel337, MSN, RN · Apr 10, 2004

I guess I am one of the lucky ones, who graduated from a three year diploma program and now working on my degree- will finish by BSN in December of this year. Lucky only in regard that I can speak to both sides of this so-called debate.
I have to say, however, this whole topic is so frustrating and so unfortuately typical of the nursing profession.......and sad.
Horizontal violence is a term that I have come to know and understand. It is a term that relates to nursing and the oppression of nurses. For many years nurses have been oppressed...... going back 50-40 years--- up to present day. Now finally, in the last decade or so...nursing is starting to get out from under the oppression, in some areas. We are a professsional body, with professional standards. However, for nurses who trained under the oppression, it becomes such a part of us, we often don't realize we use the oppression towards ourselves and others in our own profession.
We need to wake up....come on nurses..... understand we are all in this together, BSN is entry to practice here in Ontario, let's deal with it, SUPPORT each other. If someone is lacking in clinical skills, help them, talk to them, support their learning needs.....no eye rolling, tongue clicking, talking behind backs, using phrases like "I can't belieive it, they---bla bla bla". I have done these same things, not proud of it.
However, we need to stop blaming others, looking for a reason not to do something or support someone, it is the one and only way nursing can pull up from the pit of the on-gong "who is better at what" arguments that continue with no purpose.

well said. as i read the posts i can't help but feel some nurses are so touchy about the BSN issue. i don't think anyone has said "i have a BSN so i am better than you", it's just saying that a BSN won't hurt you. sometimes people are afraid to get out of their comfort zones, and any time a change is suggested, they feel threatened. i have friends that work in just about every career from accounting to law to computers and let me tell you...... it is very hard for them advance without a degree. i have worked with plenty of 2 year nurses that i would not let within 10ft of my family (as another poster said) but is it because of their education? of course not. some people are just not meant to be in the nursing profession. we must support each other. what ever a nurse chooses to do with their career is his/her own personal choice. nursing is one of the most stable careers today, but it shouldn't be taken for granted that it will always stay that way.

mmeow · Apr 17, 2004

Critical thinking cannot be taught. It comes with experience. I have worked with some degreed nurses who wouldn't know enough to come in out of the rain. Nursing skills however, must be taught. When my son was sick and spending most of his early childhood in hospital, I found it easy to pick out the university educated nurses. They were the ones who needed someone to show them how to perform basic nursing skills. Fifteen years later, I'm not noticing much difference. How can someone be an RN for a year and a half and never have d/c'd a Foley? True story. "Well, I know the theory..." she said.

I am a recent BScN grad and from my expereince (though limited thus far) the program I graduated from nurtured and supported the develpoment of my problem solving capabilities (aka critical thinking skills). The curriculum I was enrolled in provided learning experiences that introduced situations that tested my ability to judge the appropriateness of care to patient status, and allowed opportunities to trouble shoot solutions and direct pateint care appropriately. Although I believe these cognitive attributes can be attained through a working environment throughout the years, I feel very privaledged to have attained an advanced problem solving skill from my education. As for basic nursing skills, I had not been able to insert a foley until the summer of my third year....prior to this I was anxious about the procedure ....after having done so many that summer I am feeling very confident about the technique to date... as such...anyone including their mokey can perform task oriented sklills if granted enough repitiion, but learning how to process information and problem solve therapuetically requires higher level oriented cognitive capabilites...as previously stated that can be attained through facilatative educational programs or through workplace expereinces. Each nurse must be evaluated as an individual and not based on their titles as I have met many diploma nurses who excelled in their field and many who barely got by..therefore please take note that although degree nurses are provided opportunities to develop these cogitive skills in their programs....many may not.

I highly reccommend Patricia Benner and her research on Advanced beginners to competent nurses...... it may help diploma prepared nurses understand the sharp learning curve presented to BSN grads (as opportunities to perform task oriented skills may be limited wthin the program itself)

MMeow

cebu-rn · Apr 18, 2004

I am a second year nursing student, who entered in to the program with the intent of gradding with my diploma. This year we were told it is manditory to obtain a BScN Degree. This is so frustrating to me so I asked some faculty what they thought and they said that in this a positive step for better care. With the nursing shortage in Canada and now the four year program I am wondering if this is a wise rule to lay down. What do other nurses and students think about this. thanks .

i am a graduate of a bsn curriculum. i agree that it is indeed a positive move towards better care. nursing is not just about carrying out the procedures and knowing the rationales we do to patients but, we also need to know the disease process, etc... taking care of clients really needs a good foundation. and we can learn it through a good preparation!

"education sows not seeds in you, but make your seeds grow!":chuckle