Tasers being used on mentally ill patients.

[mmtk]

There have been two incidents where patients with know mental conditions were tasered multiple times.This occurred at two different area hospitals.One of the patients died.The autopsy ruled that he died of natural causes.According to the police report this patient was combative.He died from bilateral PE.I question how combative someone with bilateral PE's could be.I would like everyones opinion on the use of tasers to control a patient.Who should make the call medical personel or law enforcment.?

Thanks

[morte, LPN, LVN]

Thank you elpark.If a staff member is in immediate danger then yes force is necessary.BUT I do not think it should be a taze first then ask questions world.I as an individual nurse still believe "Patient first.":heartbeat not myself

this isnt a particularly healthy attitude....and dont expect your coworkers to be martyr mary/mark along with you.

[fins]

Although tasering sounds barbaric, is it actually worse then the alternatives? If a patient is out of control, the most likely alternative to tasering is a big hairy furball of a scrum - five staff members or so trying to get restraints on an out of control patient. Not only is the risk to staff exponentially higher, there is also a higher risk to the patient himself. Tasers weren't invented and popularized because it's fun to watch someone twitch. It's because they are generally safer and more effective than alternatives.

Also, I am completely unsurprised that a patient with B/L PEs would be so out of control. Even mild hypoxia can have profound behavioral effects. Nothing puts the body into full-bore fight-or-flight mode like the brain thinking that it's dying.

[mmtk]

25 yr nurse no serious injury.I certainly am not dead.If you wish to state a point fine.But most are character assaults which are unprofessional and juvenile.If all you can do is attack me do not bother answering.

[SharonH, RN]

You've brought up a great issue and I think it deserves a more thoughtful response than some of the "it's me or them" shrugs you've received.

It goes without saying that we should not be required to sacrifice our own safety and well being in the provision of patient care.

However some mentally ill people have a disease which causes them to act in a way that they are a danger to themselves and/or others. Should that illness be a death sentence for them? I'm afraid in many ways it is as the mentally ill are sometimes the target of lethal force outside of the hospital, and now in the hospital.

The real question should be what methods can we use to safely take down these people? Are we working to come up with something different? Is there only one way?

[mmtk]

Finally someone who understands what I am saying.OK to all you who have answered.Any alternitive suggestions.

[morte, LPN, LVN]

Finally someone who understands what I am saying.OK to all you who have answered.Any alternitive suggestions.

by the nature of your comments, i dont think you are open to any.

[mmtk]

My apologies.I am opened to suggestions.However I felt as if I was attacked from reply number one which makes me defensive.So what alternative methods are available to tasers?

[elkpark]

You've brought up a great issue and I think it deserves a more thoughtful response than some of the "it's me or them" shrugs you've received.

It goes without saying that we should not be required to sacrifice our own safety and well being in the provision of patient care.

However some mentally ill people have a disease which causes them to act in a way that they are a danger to themselves and/or others. Should that illness be a death sentence for them? I'm afraid in many ways it is as the mentally ill are sometimes the target of lethal force outside of the hospital, and now in the hospital.

The real question should be what methods can we use to safely take down these people? Are we working to come up with something different? Is there only one way?

:yeahthat:

I hope that you (the OP) didn't feel my initial response was an attack or criticism. I've been a psych nurse for 25 years, also; a few minor injuries but nothing serious; have worked in some v. tough settings but have never felt the need to call the police or even hospital security to assist me with maintaining order on a unit. Would certainly never allow a client I was responsible for to be maced or tasered.

The "it's us or them" folks can feel free to flame away ...

The best option is always to keep clients from getting "physical" in the first place -- be aware of what's going on with clients and intervene in situations before they get out of hand. Beyond that, every psych facility (and many emergency departments) offer (and require) training in nonviolent/noninjurious techniques for physically restraining people when de-escalation efforts have been unsuccessful.

[mmtk]

It truly isn't "an us or them" situation.It is a how do we as healthcare professionals give optimum care to our patients.I have never been in a situation requiring a taser.It just seems to becoming a common practice.

Honestly the "us or them" mentality concerns me more than the taser.

[kids]

"Patient first.":heartbeat not myself

I felt the same way until a patient with newly diagnosed Lewy body disease broke my back, simply because I was standing between him and the door he wanted to go through. 16 years and 9 surgeries later I still suffer the effects of a spinal cord injury. Staff safety comes first, always.

[1TachyRN, RN]

I agree wholeheartedly with the above.

And I'm also sorry that happened to you.

[Emergency RN]

my apologies.i am opened to suggestions.however i felt as if i was attacked from reply number one which makes me defensive.so what alternative methods are available to tasers?

thank you elpark.if a staff member is in immediate danger then yes force is necessary.but i do not think it should be a taze first then ask questions world.i as an individual nurse still believe "patient first.":heartbeat not myself

hello. i was the author of the first reply. if you read through the entirety of my response to your initial message, there is absolutely no evidence of any remarks that could be misconstrued as even remotely ad hominem (note: i'm not a paying member, so my messages cannot be edited beyond a five minute window). given your stated (elsewhere in thread) ample experience as a mental health nurse, i find your internalizing of my comments rather surprising. further, if you again read my first response, you'll notice that i never stated that every encounter be viewed from, as you coined, an "us v them" situation. all i stated was, that if given an ultimate choice of risking staff safety, my position was an emphatic no; that i would never allow delivery of patient care to rise above personal or staff safety.

in regards to your second comment (again, this is not ad hominem, i'm addressing the value of your idea, not you personally) regarding a belief of "patient first, not myself" is, as respondent gilarn astutely noted, a decidedly dangerous approach. it presumes that one can expertly talk oneself out from any encounter, no matter how hostile and rapidly evolving. it is also suggestive that if given an ultimate choice, that one would gladly suffer personal or staff injury, if it was in pursuit of a higher ideal, that of patient care. however, in the immediate preceding statement, you had contradicted that by offering that use of force was necessary to protect the safety of another (staff, other patients, public) who were in immediate danger.

thus, i find the overall intent of your comments rather confusing. on the one hand, you seem to state that patient care is more important than personal concerns (ie. "...patient first, not me"), and then in the next you seem to agree that staff safety is more important. so allow me to ask for your clarification:

in your opinion, should patient care ever rise above staff or personal safety; yes or no?