Still think we have the best Health care in the world?

[HM2VikingRN]

i heard this woman's story on npr http://thestory.org/archive the other night. read the diaries and make your own decision about whether our system needs reform. this patient had an 8 day wait to get in to see a us gynecologist on an urgent basis.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/7/15/132936/405

in april 2005, when i was still ignorant of endometriosis and living in the us, i was lucky enough to have health insurance (bad as it was) and decided to find a us doctor who could prescribe something for my nasal allergies. in singapore, my doctor had prescribed me "flixonase" (the foreign name for flonase) and i could buy it there for us$17 a bottle. without insurance. i would find out later that a bottle of flonase in the us would set me back us$70 a bottle with insurance.

.....

me: "how soon would you be able to operate on my cysts if i decided to have it done immediately?"

he: "anytime also can.* you want tonight, or if you want tomorrow, it can be done."

(* some singaporean style english for you. it just means "anytime.")

me: "what? really?"

he: "yah." at no point did he exhibit any expression on his face except concern, and he looked me in the eye.

me: "you'd be able to do it anytime i ask for?"

he: "ya, anytime. the sooner the better of course. just tell me, we can arrange it."

when i told my husband about the conversation, he was amazed, even with the other personal singapore healthcare experiences he's heard from me. among other things, my gynae's practice in singapore:

- is "private", as opposed to a government clinic in singapore, but still affordable. i can also get appointment with the doctor really quickly, within the same week whenever i call, if not the next day.

- never made me feel rushed. my first appointment with dr o lasted an hour. all my appointments with dr m in raleigh had never gone over 10 minutes.

- was the one who gave me a pelvic ultrasound on my first visit to him, and showed me my sonogram images, on screen during the ultrasound, and on paper after. this never happened with dr m.

comment: no waiting time for care or needed surgery.

cost for laprascopic ovarian cyst removal us: 16000

singapore: 2000-5000.

lupron us: 682 dollars

lupron singapore: 250 dollars

- quality of medical attention? as a female, and as someone who has had to get check-ups regularly for visa requirements, i haven't had the quality of healthcare in us that matches what i get in singapore yet.

if you explore the singapore ministry of health's website, read their mission statements. one thing i've always liked about their approach to health: when government is partly footing the bill, that government has a lot of incentive to keep its people healthy, and to educate the population on how to do so. singapore costs are kept affordable in two ways - the moh put it in their mission to keep healthcare affordable in singapore (and then they do it), and singapore has both public hospitals and private hospitals. both types offer competitive quality and price. competition can work - done right.

...

but the biggest tragedy i see here in the us is failure of education, philosophy and vision - many people still think, despite all worldwide numbers to the contrary, that american healthcare is the best the world can do. what perpetuates the failed system is the spoonfed bs is that no one can afford a system that tries to take care of everyone, not just the rich. and of course, the neocon myth that free market will make good healthcare system. as long as sheeple believe these falsities, bad legislation follows.

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

:smiley_ab

No disrespect to our founding fathers...

But in the late 1700's they did not have to contend with the issues we do now.

I doubt in their wildest dreams they would ever envision the world we have today...

The basic principles are sound. Fair enough. But they were dealing with a population of thousands, not millions.

They lived in a land of unlimited resources, not a global economy.

They lived in a time when EVERYONE did the best they could to survive and still many starved in the gutters.

And I believe they lived in a time where people were more, well, human.

I daresay that if the founding fathers were alive today they could come up with further improvements to their plans.

I still say that limited is a subjective term. Other countries have a much less rigid government than the US, others have a much more rigid. Ask 100 people what they think the term 'limited' means regarding the constitution and you will get different answers. There have been thousands of debates in the highest orders going on about the role of goverment since this government began. I was forced to go to one in my University a few years ago. It was ghastly to me as I am not very interested in political science.

I was just curious... do you have any comments upon the world order rankings that I posted? I was certainly shocked that the US is that low in all those categories. :uhoh21:

Nobody had health problems in the 17th Century?

Those rankings first - are solely based on the input of the submitting nations. Not an unbiased undertaking to be sure. 2nd- Americans eat crap, and consider watching TV to be exercise. That, to be sure, has a marked effects on long-term health. 3rd - Americans have this arcane, if morally heroic, attitude of saving every last premie. I'm sure that gov't restricted healthcare will provide for some measure to reduce 'futility' of effort, as a cost/benefit analysis. Until then, Of COURSE that will impact the mortality statistics of infants.

~faith,

Timothy.

[pickledpepperRN]

Weren't the Federalist papers partison articled promoting ratification of the Constitution? - http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/federalist/

Didn't Hamilton argue against the Bill of Rights? http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/bill_of_rightss7.html

Anyway it is interesting to re read them.

[horsenurse25]

Nobody had health problems in the 17th Century?

Those rankings first - are based on the input of the submitting nations. Not an unbiased undertaking to be sure. 2nd- Americans eat crap, and it has marked effects on our health. 3rd - Americans have the morally heroic attitude of saving every last premie. Of COURSE, that will impact the mortality of infants.

~faith,

Timothy.

Hmmm.

Well, another example of subjectivity I guess!

At any rate, it is a beautiful day here and I am going out to ride my horse!!

Spring has Sprung!!

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

The standings in world order of the US has been posted before several times and even though it is very telling and shameful, this data seems to be discounted by some folks.

And right you are to point out that should our founding fathers have lived in todays world, the constitution may have looked somewhat different. Hmmm... what is that old saying? " A tree that does not bend will break?"

Not discounted, but correlation is not causation, especially since other causes are readily apparent.

I might concede that if drafted today, the Constitution might look very different. Our founding fathers, in fact, conceded that very proposition, placing within the Constitution the ability to do just that, by Constitutional Convention. UNTIL such a new Convention occurs, our social contract is straightforward and the gov't IS limited.

As it should be, in the interest of compassion.

It's simply not ENOUGH to declare our social contract outdated. In order to be a valid standing, you must effect a change to that contract. The mechanism is in place to do just that.

~faith,

Timothy.

[pickledpepperRN]

Nobody had health problems in the 17th Century?

Those rankings first - are solely based on the input of the submitting nations. Not an unbiased undertaking to be sure. 2nd- Americans eat crap, and consider watching TV to be exercise. That, to be sure, has a marked effects on long-term health. 3rd - Americans have this arcane, if morally heroic, attitude of saving every last premie. I'm sure that gov't restricted healthcare will provide for some measure to reduce 'futility' of effort, as a cost/benefit analysis. Until then, Of COURSE that will impact the mortality statistics of infants.

~faith,

Timothy.

At that time Jefferson had one of his slave women treat his children for scarlet fever and such rather than call a doctor to bleed them.

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

They lived in a land of unlimited resources, not a global economy. They lived in a time when EVERYONE did the best they could to survive and still many starved in the gutters. And I believe they lived in a time where people were more, well, human.

I still say that limited is a subjective term.

I disagree. In two of our original founding colonies, they first tried socialism. Many died. THEN, their leaders wisely switched to free market incentives. The colonies, after that point, thrived.

Jamestown, 1607. With incredible and unlimited resources, all but 38 of 104 original colonists died within the first year.

Virgina Company, 1609. Same resources, same land. 440 out of 500 died in the first year.

In the late 19th Century, historian Phillip Bruce wrote, "The settlers did not have even a modified interest in the soil . . . Everything produced by them went into the store (to the Company), in which they had no proprietorship."

In 1611, the British gov't sent Sir Thomas Dale to serve as 'high marshal' of the Virginia Colony. He noted, "Almost all of the settlers had starved to death, the remaining ones were spending much of their time playing in the streets." He immediately identified the problem: the system of communal ownership.

Each man was given, by Sir Dale, 3 acres of land. He would be required to pay the Company a "tax" and could keep the rest.

Historian Matthew Andrews writes, "As soon as the settlers were thrown upon their own resources, and each freeman had acquired the right of owning property, the colonists quickly developed what became the distinguishing characteristic of Americans - an aptitude for all kinds of craftsmanship coupled with an innate genius for expermentation and invention."

The Jamestown colony was originally reduced to begging the Indians for corn. After privatization, Indians began coming to the colonists for corn, in exchange for fur and other items.

Because of the runaway success of free markets over communal ownership, by 1623, all Company landholdings were converted to private ownership.

~~

Cape Cod, 1620. Unlimited resources, communal 'rights'. Almost half of 101 colonists died in the first year.

William Bradford, Governor of the Plymouth Colony: "many sold away their clothes and bed coverings [to the Indians]; others became servants to the Indians, and would cut wood for them and fetch them water for a capful of corn; others fell to plain stealing, both night and day, from the Indians . . .In the end, they came to that misery that some starved and died with cold and hunger."

Gov Bradford's solution, in his own words, "(the Colony) should set corn for every man in particular, and in that regard trust to themselves; in all other things to go on in general as before. And so assigned to every family a parcel of land, for present use . . . and ranged all boys and youth under some family. This had very good success, for it made all hands very industrious, so as much corn was planted that otherwise would have been by any means the Govenor or any other could use, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave far better consent. The women now went willingly into the field, and took their little ones with them to set corn; which before would allege weakness and inability; whom to have compelled would have been thought great tyranny and oppression."

And so, Plymouth, like Virginia Colony before her, began to thrive. . .

Source: How Capitalism Saved America by Thomas J. DiLorenzo.

I STRONGLY disagree with the notion that our forefathers were more moral or more 'human'. Humans are who they are. With the right resources and motivations, anything is possible. Deprive humanity of incentive and the results are ruinious, whether you are talking about our founding Colonies OR say, NYC, 2007.

~~~

No matter WHAT YOU say, our social contract was a specific exercise in defining EXACTLY what 'limited' gov't meant. Read the Federalist Papers if you have ANY doubt.

~faith,

Timothy.

[pickledpepperRN]

."[/i]

I STRONGLY disagree with the notion that our forefathers were more moral or more 'human'. Humans are who they are.

~faith,

Timothy.

Of course.

As were our 'foremothers' Dolly Madison, Martha Washington, Sally Hemmings, and Abigale Adams kepr diaries and wrote many letters.

We know much about them and their thoughts about the men they loved.

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

Of course.

As were our 'foremothers' Dolly Madison, Martha Washington, Sally Hemmings, and Abigale Adams kepr diaries and wrote many letters.

We know much about them and their thoughts about the men they loved.

Touche.

~faith,

Timothy.

[pickledpepperRN]

Touche.

~faith,

Timothy.

:kiss

[UKRNinUSA, RN]

BTW, it seems to me that your latin signature lies in stark contradiction to your train of thought.

Nope, liked it when I first read it -still like it now. It seems to me you are still full of chocolate ice cream. But then I already knew that.

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

Nope, liked it when I first read it -still like it now. It seems to me you are still full of chocolate ice cream. But then I already knew that.

VANILLA.

~faith,

Timothy.

[UKRNinUSA, RN]

preamble to the constitution

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I read something in our local paper (Random Lengths) today about Blue Cross. It was fined $1million for "routinely" violating state law by cancelling individual health insurance coverage after policyholders got pregnant or sick, back in March of this year. Incidentally, the parent company of Blue Cross, Wellpoint Inc. made $3.1billion profit last year! Apparently further investigations into Kaiser Permanente, Blue Shield, Healthnet and Pacificare are planned by California's Department of Managed Health Care.

The best health care system in the world - you are joking, aren't you? Unless best is a synonym for corrupt!