Should patients be allowed to refuse LPNs and CNAs?

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Last night on our med/surg unit, we had an elderly woman who was in wiht consitpation. Very stable patient, vitals within normal limits, fairly negative past medical history, no home meds, independent with ADLs...again, a very stable patient. No BM for 8 days...came in to ER via private vehicle with complaints of abdominal pain.

We are a small rural hospital, average patient census of 10. Last night we had nine patients. This woman decided that she did not want any LPNs or CNAs in her room. OK...we try to accomodate such requests, but on nights like this, we have one RN on med/surg and one in ER. ER was pretty busy, so the ER nurse did not have time to come to the floor to help. Other than the charge RN, we had two LPNs and one CNA...staffing well above what we normally have. Certainly, the RN had time to care for this patient, but this woman didn't even want the CNA or one of the LPNs to do the simple things like taking her vital signs, refilling her water pitcher, or emptying her commode. So...the RN not only was charge over 9 patients, but had to do all cares for this patient, simply because she did not want anyone but an RN.

I agree 100% that there should be an RN available for all patients, but not all patients require an RN as their primary nurse. In a small rural area like this one, sometimes you have to take an LPN, especially if you are stable and have a predictable outcome. Had we been busier or had an unstable patient, would we have been out of line to explain to this patient that there was an RN available if anything unexpected happened, but that due to staffing reasons, her assigned nurse would be an LPN? This happens every now and then and usually we are able to accomodate the requests of RNs only, but what about when we just can't do it?

Are you willing to pay for the years of litigation that might result from the lawsuits she files if her request is not honored? It's not always about what is right or wrong ... fair or unfair. Sometimes you simply have to protect yourself (and your family) by tolerating something you disapprove of.

While such a patient would make me very angry, I wouldn't want to jeopardize my financial future just to prove a point to her. She isn't worth it. My life and well-being are more important to me than some idiot's biases.

llg

This selfish, IGNORANT beyond belief woman should have been made to understand she wasn't at the Holiday Inn, and she was going to get the same quality of care EVERYONE ELSE was getting.

That or she could find another hospital.

I have run into this situation. I (RN) explain that I supervise the LPN and CNA. They assist me. I have many very ill patients who have needs that only and RN can meet. If you insist that only an RN gives care then you will be without a lot of care. I am only one person and must rely one the LPN and CNA to get everything done.The LPN and CNA are fully qualified to give your care and anything that they are not qualified to do I will. Your needs are very simple and they can handle them.

I see this situation has made a great deal of angry nurses, but the fact of the matter is this pt is paying the bill. Therefore, I think she has the right to refuse anything and everything she wishes to. I agree I find the whole ordeal to be a huge pain in the ***. Just because it's in the world of registered nurses doesn't make things different. If we switched the RN for MD I doubt many nurses would complain many would most likely agree with the pt. Mrs. X refused to have the resident MD involved in her case and stated she only wanted the surgeon to take of her needs. Curious, anyone still see a problem now? Remember the pt pays the bill folks.

I see this situation has made a great deal of angry nurses, but the fact of the matter is this pt is paying the bill. Therefore, I think she has the right to refuse anything and everything she wishes to. I agree I find the whole ordeal to be a huge pain in the ***. Just because it's in the world of registered nurses doesn't make things different. If we switched the RN for MD I doubt many nurses would complain many would most likely agree with the pt. Mrs. X refused to have the resident MD involved in her case and stated she only wanted the surgeon to take of her needs. Curious, anyone still see a problem now? Remember the pt pays the bill folks.

I don't know what healthcare world you practice in, but very rarely, does the patient "pay the bill". Federal state and local government, along with insurance companies pay the vast majority of recovered medical bills. As the payer of the bills, they get to set the rules of care. That's why we all jump through JCAHO hoops and such. Several posters have suggested giving the pt the option of paying for RN care through hiring a private duty nurse.

Your MD analogy falls similarly flat. I've worked in ERs where PAs worked with remote (meaning not physically there) supervision by an MD. If a stable pt demanded to be seen by an MD rather than a PA (as would very occasionally happen) they could feel free to take themselves to a facility that had an MD present. We certainly didn't get one for them.

Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.
Remember the pt pays the bill folks.

Then they should pay "the bill" for the private nurse, then.

Healthcare isn't Burger King (as in "Have It Your Way).

Specializes in Pediatrics.
if we switched the rn for md i doubt many nurses would complain many would most likely agree with the pt. mrs. x refused to have the resident md involved in her case and stated she only wanted the surgeon to take of her needs. curious, anyone still see a problem now? remember the pt pays the bill folks.

so my question (in response to your question is), how do teaching hospitals stay in business? and isn't that part of the 'agreement' when you are seen in a teaching hospital? while i've never actually seen that happen (a patient only willing to be seen by an attending), i don't know too many people who actually 'enjoy' being a topic of lecture (but they don't complain). and if they did, i'm just wondering: a patient has pain during the night, no order for pain meds. you call the resident, but the patient won't let him/her assess. do we have to call in the attending from home to come in and evaluate (it's a stretch, i know...)

so my question (in response to your question is), how do teaching hospitals stay in business? and isn't that part of the 'agreement' when you are seen in a teaching hospital? while i've never actually seen that happen (a patient only willing to be seen by an attending), i don't know too many people who actually 'enjoy' being a topic of lecture (but they don't complain). and if they did, i'm just wondering: a patient has pain during the night, no order for pain meds. you call the resident, but the patient won't let him/her assess. do we have to call in the attending from home to come in and evaluate (it's a stretch, i know...)

yes, i agree with you...the whole thing is ridiculous...but " the patient is always right".....and does pay the bill...

I don't know of ANY PTs that pay medical bills in this decade. Insurance Companies, Medicare, and Medicade pay more than 90% of all medical bills. I was told that less than 10% of uninsured PTs that are not elegible for federal or state medical assistance actually pay for treatment care that has been received. The PT may be right, but the PT does not pay the bill. The hospital management and private doctors please the payor not the PT, and are fast to let the PT know what is and is not covered. Yeah, I can demand a specialist see me, but it is plainly stated that seeing a specialist will cost me big bucks. There is no written or assumed law that implies that when you walk into a hospital that you will be given all care by RNs or MDs. In all likelyhood, the insurance company, Medicare or Medicade dictates what the PT may or may not get, so how can a PT really have the power to dictate to a facility who attends them? If the facility doesn't have adequate staff to assign 100% RN care to each PT, the PT demanding an RN to wipe their butt doesn't have a leg to stand on. The PT choose the facility/wasn't forced to go there. The PT signed waivers, disclosures, etc upon admittance. When you check into a hospital you sign all kinds of disclaimers. The hospital's liability issues are pretty well covered by the paperwork in admitting. That PT didn't have a leg to stand on, and offered the option of a private nurse RN at added expense to her.

Yes, I agree with you...the whole thing is ridiculous...but " the patient is always right".....and does pay the bill...
This selfish, IGNORANT beyond belief woman should have been made to understand she wasn't at the Holiday Inn, and she was going to get the same quality of care EVERYONE ELSE was getting.

That or she could find another hospital.

We had parents at one nicu i worked at actually be allowed, by management, to make a list of RN's that could care for their child. They claim they based this list on education credentials of the nurse, ie: bsn, adn, etc. But what we found out was that the only people on the list ( who nobody wanted to be on) were nurses whom their child "had a good night with". The unit is all RN's, but I think this is similar, and we blamed the manager for allowing this. She said the parents threatened to transfer to another hospital. God forbid, right? My opinion is this:

IF YOU CONSENT TO BE TREATED IN A FACILITY, THEN YOU CONSENT TO BE TREATED BY WHOMEVER THAT FACILITY ASSIGNS TO TREAT YOU. Lpn, RN, PA, whatever. Unless is an individual problem with one person, thats different. But thats not what we are talking about here.

I've had this problem occur occasionally with a few of my pts. I usually take the time to explain to them the nursing scope of the person involved & what that person has been trained to do. Then I impress upon the pt that while it is their right to refuse any care being giving to them, that we encourage pts being actively involved in their care. That part of my job as an RN, is prioritizing my actions thru out the day to ensure that all of my pts get the best proper care from me. While I don't consider myself above filling water pitchers, or helping stable pts take a potty break, that these activities may not rate high on my priority chart (based on what I have going on at that time) and said pt may have to wait to get these requests fufilled.

We had parents at one nicu i worked at actually be allowed, by management, to make a list of RN's that could care for their child. They claim they based this list on education credentials of the nurse, ie: bsn, adn, etc. But what we found out was that the only people on the list ( who nobody wanted to be on) were nurses whom their child "had a good night with". The unit is all RN's, but I think this is similar, and we blamed the manager for allowing this. She said the parents threatened to transfer to another hospital. God forbid, right? My opinion is this:

IF YOU CONSENT TO BE TREATED IN A FACILITY, THEN YOU CONSENT TO BE TREATED BY WHOMEVER THAT FACILITY ASSIGNS TO TREAT YOU. Lpn, RN, PA, whatever. Unless is an individual problem with one person, thats different. But thats not what we are talking about here.

I see this kinda stuff go on with long term ICU patients and their families as well and its purely manipulation IMO, and shouldn't be supported. what is more aggravating is when managers managers side with family members who prefer certain staff members for their own purposes...and I see it a lot because certain nurses will cater to them, break rules for them, etc.

Managers and staff often cave to these demanding, manipulative types cuz it takes less energy to go along than not. Thus...they are rewarded and enabled in their manipulation (and share their stories in the waiting room with other families who then follow suit)

Specializes in ER (new), Respitory/Med Surg floor.
I see this kinda stuff go on with long term ICU patients and their families as well and its purely manipulation IMO, and shouldn't be supported. what is more aggravating is when managers managers side with family members who prefer certain staff members for their own purposes...and I see it a lot because certain nurses will cater to them, break rules for them, etc.

Managers and staff often cave to these demanding, manipulative types cuz it takes less energy to go along than not. Thus...they are rewarded and enabled in their manipulation (and share their stories in the waiting room with other families who then follow suit)

uagh!! I had one pt a huge psych hx who had seizures on her admission that have been ruled as pseudoseizures and was out right nuts. I don't mean to be nasty my entire family on my mom's side has schizophrenia to bipolar (yeah i hope i don't freak out!) and may even want to work with psych pt's but this was a pt on a med surg floor and i have to prioritize based on each pt's status. She was refusing to go to the psych floor, all the tests they did on her where neg and she was in with asthma and lungs clear. She would manipulate everything and the doctor kept keeping her there! I don't know why i think he feared a lawsuit or getting in trouble if something was wrong. She got to one pt that she would be incont yet she could stand up and throw the brief away and void some more in the toilet. Ok yes there's stress incont but this was rediculous! She then voided on day shift at 1430. I come in on 3 and the day nurse said once she told her they needed a urine sample the pt flipped saying i can't get it out even though she just voided despite us explaining this. Anyway her neigbor was a frequent flyer very nice but she wants to be everyone's friend and that's an issues but she starts discussing the care of teh psych pt telling her i don't see why they don't take it out with a catheter. I was so ticked because I was not going to catheterize a healthy person if they didn't need it so then the pscy pt became yet fixated on this oh take it out you have to take it out. The doctor would not call me back to get an order to do it yeah i gave up at this point she was so distraught i almost just did it. No ativan, the psych md was there and i told everything and finally he ordered it yet would not order ativan. So i get her on the bed she starts coughing and urine streams out when she coughs. I mean I really felt she was holding it in and then it was forced to come out. I ended up getting 500cc out which is a lot. Called again got a foley in her. Still upset then oh it's hurts but was getting better. Then the next day ativan is ordered and she's doing better however they did us and found nothing with the area. But there would allways be an issue like when she siezed first told the doctor and i could tell he felt like she was faking and would not order any test. And then the next day i find ct scans and us i'm like well why now and not then to find out what's what and get her to pscyh or out!!! Don't know but pesky neighbors reminded me of this exactly because these 2 pts fed off one another and it made it worse.

Boy have we been all over the map with this topic. Very interesting. What I really haven't heard except in perhaps in 2 posts is how this affects the LPN. Having witnessed this at work, where an LPN was banned literally from one room, because the gentlemen in the room didn't feel she was prompt enough with pain meds (eg not there in under 3 minutes, not exaggerating, they timed her...) another LPN or the house sup had to see to their care.

What does this do to the LPN as a professional nurse?

As an LPN I quite frankly would be relieved that this patient did not want me as a nurse. My experience has shown that no matter how "good" I am they would find fault with my abilities. This, even with exacting documentation, could lead to my lisence being at jeopardy. I would be extremely grateful to the RN for being willing to assume these responsibilities. (and by default since I work under his/her license.....I am fortunate to work with amazing nurses RN's/LPNs)

At the same time, a deep and abiding anger comes to the fore. Not with RN/LPN roles and duties, that horse is serious maggot meat at this point. My anger stems from public perception of nurses. Do people really see us as professionals?

I don't think they do. And furthermore I feel the stereotype of nurse as she with the lamp soothing the fevered brow with kind word and gentle touch is still the predominant image. Never mind that the entire time we are with a patient we are constantly assessing, rate and rhythm of respiration, pallor or flushed, lethargic or responsive, differences in behavioral patterns, eyes clear cloudy, color of u/a in foley, edemetous or not......etc etc etc dependent upon diagnosis. And predicated upon what we see, we intervene..... We are skilled, educated, dedicated professionals responsible for stabilizing, maintaining medical stability, and assisting in the healing process. It is no longer a world of beat me, whip me, oh let me write your orders doctor.... What I want to know is how to change the predominant stereotype and is it even possible???

Not a saint, not an angel,

a Professional Nurse

Tres

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