Should patients be allowed to refuse LPNs and CNAs?

Nurses LPN/LVN

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Last night on our med/surg unit, we had an elderly woman who was in wiht consitpation. Very stable patient, vitals within normal limits, fairly negative past medical history, no home meds, independent with ADLs...again, a very stable patient. No BM for 8 days...came in to ER via private vehicle with complaints of abdominal pain.

We are a small rural hospital, average patient census of 10. Last night we had nine patients. This woman decided that she did not want any LPNs or CNAs in her room. OK...we try to accomodate such requests, but on nights like this, we have one RN on med/surg and one in ER. ER was pretty busy, so the ER nurse did not have time to come to the floor to help. Other than the charge RN, we had two LPNs and one CNA...staffing well above what we normally have. Certainly, the RN had time to care for this patient, but this woman didn't even want the CNA or one of the LPNs to do the simple things like taking her vital signs, refilling her water pitcher, or emptying her commode. So...the RN not only was charge over 9 patients, but had to do all cares for this patient, simply because she did not want anyone but an RN.

I agree 100% that there should be an RN available for all patients, but not all patients require an RN as their primary nurse. In a small rural area like this one, sometimes you have to take an LPN, especially if you are stable and have a predictable outcome. Had we been busier or had an unstable patient, would we have been out of line to explain to this patient that there was an RN available if anything unexpected happened, but that due to staffing reasons, her assigned nurse would be an LPN? This happens every now and then and usually we are able to accomodate the requests of RNs only, but what about when we just can't do it?

That's baloney. I would have left the commode umemptied until it got ripe and she gave in and let an aide empty it! Okay, maybe I wouldn't have done that, but I'd want to.

If she wants to request an RN to give her meds or start an IV - okay, I can live with that, although the LPN is perfectly capable. But for the other stuff I'd chart "pt refuses vital signs" and leave. She's lucky she has anyone to wipe her butt, with staffing how it is in this country.

I wouldn't chart what you suggest because it is not correct. What would happen if the administrator knew this patient and asked her if she refused and she said she didn't? Can we try to think from the patient's point of view? Why did she only want an RN? Did no one ask? Had something happened to her or someone she knows and she was apprehensive? Like someone else said, I don't know the whole story either but I think good patient care and concern would include a simple question. I don't mean to seem harsh and critical , after all, she may have been "one of those patients" we seem to get at times. I had one on orthopedics with 3 sisters in her room but she stayed on the call bell telling me she "would let me" get her purse from the closet, the next time I "could" get her hand lotion for her, etc,etc for several calls while I was trying to hang piggybacks on other patients. I "vented" to the supervisor but she was worthless as a tick. I finally kept my cool and explained that I had several other patients that required meds on time and I would appreciate if her 3 sisters would help me out. She didn't realize what she was doing and apologized. Even sent me a Thank You card to the floor!!! I still don't like the woman.

If she wants to request an RN to give her meds or start an IV - okay, I can live with that, although the LPN is perfectly capable. But for the other stuff I'd chart "pt refuses vital signs" and leave. She's lucky she has anyone to wipe her butt, with staffing how it is in this country.

if she was living independently until the time she came in, she must be quite capable of wiping her own butt...

thank you very much.

there's no way i would give in to such a request. i'd have the administrator on call get her a private duty rn in before i'd begin practicing like this. more than likely, there were other patients who need the rn more than this patient with constipation! i'd tell her that if, or when, she had trouble breathing, she'd be glad the rn isn't tied up making, her wait during her emergency.

as far as the poster mentioned about meeting pt's requests....

pts just can not dictate how a place is run. if they want an rn 24/7 they are more than welcome to hire a private duty. if the patient specifically requested no one of a certain religion or color, that's different... but to request certain licenses for constipation????!!!!!

only in healthcare i guess...:roll

Sorry to say this but they get alot of this from other patients and from the community Or hearing some say that LPN"S arnt real nurses and that a CNA is just there to clean butts I think we as a LPN can do anything that is allowed for us to do but the admin states and people in general need to reinforce that we are all trained personal Pts should not be allowed to refuse us as nurses or caregivers i worked in a small rural hospital in Texas and sometimes on the floor it was just me and the aides but then agaion in texas i was allowed to do alot more than i do here in missouri but when we had a promblem i use to tell them we were all nurses we all went to school and i will do anything for them within my power to do so alot of them didnt have anything else to say to that and let us work with them when it was all done they got use to the idea that with everyone that could come in there lights got answered faster and they always had someone to talk to

I am an overworked, underpaid LPN of 15 years. This situation really pisses me off!! :angryfire I've been done like this several hundred times in my career. In one instance, the pt requested an RN and the RN almost killed the pt by overmedicating them with Dilantin.{Incidentally, the pt had no order for it} I'm not the smartest nurse in the world, but I've seen and worked with RN's that I can run circles around. I'd rather have an LPN with 20 yrs experience than an RN with 2 years of experience. I agree that pts should not be able to dictate hospital policy by being allowed to choose what type of nurse takes care of them{RN, LPN, ADN, ect....} The concern should be "is the nurse qualified?" Just because our titles are lower doesn't mean that we dont know our jobs. It is sad that so many people get us qualified nurses twisted. But it is their loss. :nono:

Specializes in Utilization Management.

This situation really pisses me off!! :angryfire I've been done like this several hundred times in my career.

Actually, this is the kind of patient that should make you GLAD you're an LPN

so you don't have to deal with her craziness. :chuckle

Actually, this is the kind of patient that should make you GLAD you're an LPN

so you don't have to deal with her craziness. :chuckle

Thankyou! You are right!{but it STILL pisses me off} :rotfl:

Specializes in Utilization Management.
Thankyou! You are right!{but it STILL pisses me off}

I hear ya. (Still those are the patients that you secretly pray will go AMA, aren't they?) ;)

Specializes in ICU, CCU, Trauma, neuro, Geriatrics.

Humm, I want the highest trained slave for the night please. Why didn't she demand a doctor or better yet a GI specialist?

A patient may refuse anything but that does not mean they should be offered whatever they wish. Send staff in as usual and chart everything she refuses, from ADLs to meds. I am ashamed of the nurse who would belittle your own co-workers for fear of a law suit. Pts should receive the best care we can offer and be respectful while doing it. That doesn't mean catering to someone by disrespecting your own people. That would be a slap in the face to those who were told all of a sudden they aren't good enough to do their jobs. Doing the right thing is always the right thing reguardless of the risks. I hope this person is not a supervisor. To know they have no loyalty to there own and would sell them out whenever "prudent".

I hear ya. (Still those are the patients that you secretly pray will go AMA, aren't they?) ;)

No dear, I pray openly :lol2: and hope they hear me. :roll

Humm, I want the highest trained slave for the night please. Why didn't she demand a doctor or better yet a GI specialist?

Yes! And lets give this pt a colonoscopy without Versed or any other sedative. :yelclap:

Specializes in PICU, Nurse Educator, Clinical Research.
thank you. Can't anyone see the hypocrisy here? I think in the case of prior sexual abuse, I can see the point, but otherwise, why discriminate? Females who accept male doctors should have NO problem accepting the care of male nurses.

is if the patient's religious beliefs make care given by someone of the opposite sex improper. for instance, last night at clinicals, I had a female patient who happened to come from a conservative muslim background. she'd had a hip replacement, and needed 2 people to assist her to the toilet. when I went to get someone else to help me, she asked, very politely, if I could get another female to help. that was fine with me. if there was nobody available but a male nurse/cna/student, I don't know if she would've made a fuss or not. it was a request i could easily accomodate, so i didn't mind doing so. i had a male muslim patient at work a couple of months ago who had cancer-related neurological issues and needed a lot of hands-on care, and he told me he was uncomfortable being touched and bathed by a woman, but he understood it was necessary, and he wasn't in the position to be picky.

i don't know what this patient's bias was based on, but I agree that she had no reason to complain about a non-RN emptying her toilet and bringing her water. that's just silly.

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