Shooting at nurse's college in Tuscon, AZ??

Mkue · Oct 28, 2002

It's very sad and tragic.

NCTraumaNurse · Oct 28, 2002

Australia and Great Britain have the two highest violent crime rates in the industrialized world. The United States did not make the top ten. Feel free to check this link, or do a search on violent crime statistics in G.B and Australia.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902

Personally, I own several guns, but as I have a brain and I am not crazy, my gun is not for killing. It is for self defense. Period.

dawngloves, BSN, RN · Oct 28, 2002

Yes, you can kill someone with a kitchen knife, but a gun makes it a lot easier. It's harder to dodge a bullet than a nut case with a steak knife.

I agree, what kind of freak brings a knife to exams??? So sad. You aren't safe anywhere anymore.

dawngloves, BSN, RN · Oct 28, 2002

Originally posted by Michigan Nurse
Australia and Great Britain have the two highest violent crime rates in the industrialized world. The United States did not make the top ten. Feel free to check this link, or do a search on violent crime statistics in G.B and Australia.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902

.

I question your source.

catch33er · Oct 29, 2002

I just want to bring this back to the concern for the students and professors who were killed and for their families.

It is so sad that people can get so stressed in a program that's supposed to be about helping people!!!!! What does that say about our admissions standards, our workload, etc....

kmchugh · Oct 29, 2002

Two women who had dedicated themselves to teaching the art of nursing are dead, at the hands of an obvious psychopath. He is dead, as well. Many of us have worked in trauma ER's, and know how personal a violent death is, no matter the mechanism of that death. We know the devastating impact on the victim and the victim's friends and families. There are good people dead, and grieving families and friends. There are student nurses who are terrified.

No matter how you feel on the subject, perhaps its time to table the debate on gun control and take some time to think about, and pray for (if you are so inclined) all of the victims of this tragedy. Leave gun control for another time, another thread.

Kevin McHugh

shay · Oct 29, 2002

:rolleyes: Three simple points:

1. Gun control laws are ignored by most criminals who want to use guns. They do not "control" illegal use and abuse of firearms by criminals, only law-abiding citizens.

2. The crime rates in G.B. and Canada HAVE gone up (Dawngloves, this is for you) since the tight gun control laws have been enacted. Why? Because the CRIMINALS WHO IGNORE THE LAWS know that their victims are UNARMED.

3. Whether or not there were tighter gun control laws has NO bearing on this shooting. If this guy wanted to kill, he'd have gotten a gun to do it, no matter what. If someone wants to break the law, more LAWS aren't going to stop them from doing it. Simple logic, folks.

Here: more reading

May 13, 2000

Gun Control: Myths and Realities

by David Lampo

David Lampo is the publications director at the Cato Institute.

The number of well-publicized public shootings during the past few years, especially the tragedy at Columbine High School, has re-energized the gun control movement. As a show of strength, a coalition of gun control groups has organized a "Million Mom March" to be held in Washington, D.C. on Mother's Day, an event designed to stir up emotions rather than promote rational thought. And when one looks at the facts about gun control, it's easy to see why the anti-gun lobby relies on emotion rather than logic to make its case.

Think you know the facts about gun control? If your only source of information is the mainstream media, what you think you know may not be correct. Take the quiz below and test your knowledge.

1. Thousands of children die annually in gun accidents.

False. Gun accidents involving children are actually at record lows, although you wouldn't know it from listening to the mainstream media. In 1997, the last year for which data are available, only 142 children under 15 years of age died in gun accidents, and the total number of gun-related deaths for this age group was 642. More children die each year in accidents involving bikes, space heaters or drownings. The often repeated claim that 12 children per day die from gun violence includes "children" up to 20 years of age, the great majority of whom are young adult males who die in gang-related violence.

2. Gun shows are responsible for a large number of firearms falling into the hands of criminals.

False. Contrary to President Clinton's claims, there is no "gun show loophole." All commercial arms dealers at gun shows must run background checks, and the only people exempt from them are the small number of non-commercial sellers. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, at most 2 percent of guns used by criminals are purchased at gun shows, and most of those were purchased legally by people who passed background checks.

3. The tragedy at Columbine High School a year ago illustrates the deficiencies of current gun control laws.

False. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold violated close to 20 firearms laws in amassing their cache of weapons (not to mention the law against murder), so it seems rather dubious to argue that additional laws might have prevented this tragedy. The two shotguns and rifle used by Harris and Klebold were purchased by a girlfriend who would have passed a background check, and the TEC-9 handgun used by them was already illegal.

4. States that allow registered citizens to carry concealed weapons have lower crime rates than those that don't.

True. The 31 states that have "shall issue" laws allowing private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons. In fact, the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states. Remarkably, guns are used for self-defense more than 2 million times a year, three to five times the estimated number of violent crimes committed with guns.

5. Waiting periods lower crime rates.

False. Numerous studies have been conducted on the effects of waiting periods, both before and after the federal Brady bill was passed in 1993. Those studies consistently show that there is no correlation between waiting periods and murder or robbery rates. Florida State University professor Gary Kleck analyzed data from every U.S. city with a population over 100,000 and found that waiting periods had no statistically significant effect. Even University of Maryland anti-gun researcher David McDowell found that "waiting periods have no influence on either gun homicides or gun suicides."

6. Lower murder rates in foreign countries prove that gun control works.

False. This is one of the favorite arguments of gun control proponents, and yet the facts show that there is simply no correlation between gun control laws and murder or suicide rates across a wide spectrum of nations and cultures. In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel "have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States." A comparison of crime rates within Europe reveals no correlation between access to guns and crime.

The basic premise of the gun control movement, that easy access to guns causes higher crime, is contradicted by the facts, by history and by reason. Let's hope more people are catching on.

Finally, yes, it's sad what happened at the school. I am deeply saddened for all the families of the victims. It's a tragedy and catch33er is right, perhaps it's time to examine how nsg schools are run and the standards instead.

rncountry · Oct 29, 2002

The shooter was a 41 year old Gulf War Veteran. Someone who knew him has stated that he applied for a concealed weapons permit about a year ago. He is being described by classmates as rude, obnoxious etc... I can't help but wonder why he needed a concealed weapons permit, what is up with Gulf War Vets, and lastly if he had already flunked a peds course as is being reported, then how could he go on? In the school I graduated from if you flunked a course than you could not come back into the program until the following year when that course was offered again. You did not advance.

I would believe that the man was already unstable for whatever reason, the article I read also said he had some issues at home. Perhaps home issues were expected to be forgotten and it was expected they should not impact on his schooling? I think it has to be asked exactly what was going on and how did this man continue in school to begin with?

The pro and anti gun debate will never be resolved. To me the biggest problem at the moment is that the gun laws we have in place are not being enforced. No one should be able to get a concealed weapons permit without a damn good reason. We do not live in the days of the Wild, Wild West anymore.

I am sorry for the families, I am tired of hearing this kind of thing as well. I find it offensive that 10 people just were murdered in the sniper incident, and 4 dead at this college and somehow or another there are those that seem more concerned with the right for people to have guns than they are with the deaths of those who were murdered, not to mention the families that have to now cope with it. Not everyone should be able to own a weapon. The argument that they would have killed someone with whatever is at hand to me is not a valid argument anymore. These deaths did not occur with a knife, a ballbat, or any other device than a gun. Yes, people kill people, no inanimate object has the ability to kill anyone without human hands helping it along. However, a person who is not armed with a gun has very little protection against someone who does. Should we all begin carrying a weapon just in case? Those that are mentally ill should not be allowed access to guns, and the Brady bill has this in it. However 38 states refuse to comply with this because they are afraid of patient confidentiality issues. There are over 3 million people who have had restraining orders issued against them, all of whom are supposed to be entered into a database so they are not able to get a gun, however less than half of million names have been entered due to lack of personnel and lack of appropriate technology. The money to be able to help provide this is being currently blocked by the Republican led house. Why? We are not talking about those that want something to hunt with, or to protect their homes with, we are talking about people who have already demonstrated that they are violent, and capable of carrying out that violence.

And lastly could we please remember that there are 4 dead people now? Nursing instructors that likely had husbands and children. I can't help but wonder if someone inappropriate continued in the nursing program because we need nurses so badly. There are some questions that should be asked here, and gun control is not the top of the list.

oramar · Oct 29, 2002

When we were going through downsizing and layoffs at my little hospital I was half expecting something like this. I worked with a couple of crazy people who loved guns. Paranoia and guns are a dangerous combination. I am really suprised this did not happen in a hospital administration office instead of a nursing school. I have been thinking for a long time that healthcare is getting more and more stressful and "going postal" is going to seem like an option to some people.

Vsummer1 · Oct 29, 2002

TUCSON, Ariz. (Oct. 28) - A student opened fire in a class at the University of Arizona nursing school Monday, killing two professors and another bystander before apparently taking his own life, school officials said.

The attack sent scores of students rushing toward the doors of the school in central Tucson, many of the screaming as they fled. Police went room to room looking for more victims and later called in the bomb squad to search the building.

The gunman was identified by university Vice Provost Elizabeth Irvin as Robert S. Flores, a Gulf War veteran who was apparently flunking out of the nursing program. He apparently committed suicide after the attack, Police Chief Richard Miranda said.

Police did not disclose how the victims died or what their relationship was to Flores, if any. They said the victims were found in two different locations inside the school north of the university's main campus.

Police also refused to identify the victims, though a university spokeswoman said they included two female professors.

Bomb squad members were called in after a backpack or package was found underneath the gunman's body. The suspect had earlier threatened to blow up the building, though it was unclear when the threat was made, Miranda said. A bomb-sniffing dog reacted to the suspect's car in a nearby parking lot.

The college and nearby buildings were evacuated.

Irvin said she didn't know how long Flores had been in the nursing program, but he had failed a pediatric class and was struggling in a critical care class.

Flores worked at the Southern Arizona Veterans Administration Health Care System as a licensed practical nurse who was employed by a nursing agency, said Spencer Ralston, associate director for health care system.

Ralston said Flores had begun clinical training at the Veterans Administration last Wednesday.

''We don't show anything in our records that indicates good or bad (performance),'' Ralston said.

Lori Schenkel, who was in the building during the shootings, said two different students banged on her classroom door and told everyone to get out.

''We ran out of the building and there were police telling us to run away,'' Schenkel said.

Anu Nigam, a 29-year-old graduate student, said she and her husband were outside the building waiting for a shuttle bus when a woman came out of the building with a cell phone, trying to dial and screaming that there was a man with a gun in the building. Police were at the scene within seconds.

''A group of people were crying and running desperately to get out of the building,'' Nigam said. ''They were crying, tripping over one another, falling down.''

Nigam's husband, Vishwas Seshadri, 27, estimated they saw 50 to 60 people scramble to get out of the building before police swarmed in and shooed them away.

Police escorted groups of students, faculty and administrators in shuttle buses to the Alumni Building, where counselors were being made available.

Dana Weir, a spokeswoman for the alumni foundation, said students and faculty looked shaken, and people in her office were just trying to make them comfortable.

University President Peter Likens called the shooting an isolated incident. He said there were no immediate plans to change security procedures at the 34,000-student university, which includes the 380-student nursing school.

''I don't now believe there's any reason to imply a deficiency of security either in that building or on this campus,'' he said.

AP-NY-10-28-02 1600EST

Copyright 2002 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

NCTraumaNurse · Oct 29, 2002

Thank you Shay, for the assist. I did say that anyone could do a search on violent crimes to find information, that's all I did.

Yes, it is a terrible tragedy, and one that should not have happened. Perhaps some intervention should have come sooner if he had already threatened people. We need to take threats very seriously these days. I also agree that nursing education is not necessarily very nurturing, it seems to me more a dictator type of system than a democracy. How sad. :rolleyes:

NCTraumaNurse · Oct 29, 2002

Just an afterthought (or after post...) I am alive today, and have a daughter, husband, dog, two cats, some fish, and hopefully some grandchildren some day BECAUSE I OWN GUNS!! So yes, as someone said, it is hard for an unarmed person to go up against an armed person. That night it worked in my favor.