Sending nurses over from India???

[linfull]

A nursing friend of mine just informed me that there is talk of training nurses in India and then offering them free housing to come work in the U.S. Is this true :angryfire :uhoh21: ? I was going to start nursing school next year, but may rethink it now. I work from home as a medical transcriptionist. I don't have any benefits, but my husband does. I can make $23.00+ an hour if I'm cranking out over 300 lines in an hour (which I do). This is before taxes, which means I foot the bill 100% for Medicare. But, I don't have to drive anywhere nor do I have to pay for a babysitter. I can be home when my son wakes up, take him to school, work at home, pick him back up after school. BUt this requires quite a bit of weekend work. I can also work as a substitute teacher for $80.00 once he is in school full time and this won't require any extra school as I have an associates in science. I miss being around people, but I can achieve that by volunteering again with Hospice or our local nursing home (which is where I wanted to do nursing LTC). Do you all think the money I make now is comparable to that of a LTC nurse in a small town? Just looking for some good advice/info from nurses out there in the field/trenches. Thanks a bunch!!

[Sheri257]

If there is a robot to lift patients for me, great..................I remember when the digital machines came out that allowed a nurse to monitor BP, HR, Temp, and pulse ox at the same time, and there were quite a few nurses that thought that that would change their jobs and left them feeling insecure.

Has it? Not at all. Just made our lives easier................And do you have any idea as to how expensive that these robots are going to be? I don't see hospitals running out to purchase them quickly.

True. It does appear unlikely that this could replace nurses entirely, so I don't really view it as a threat. But you never know. I guess because I lived in Silicon Valley, I learned not to underestimate technology. Remember when the nobody thought the internet would amount to much? And, now, here we are.

[Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN]

Also note in order to hire a foreign citazen of any sort it must be proven that it is a job no US citazen wants or can fill. (Think migrant worker picking fruit for low wages in the hot sun.) So if US nurses are filling the positions, hospitals are not allowed to bring over foreign workers.

It's a double edged sword. They are BSN prepared and are excellent nurses. It fulfills a dire need. On the other hand it allows the profression and management not to address the issues as to why there is a shortage in the first place.

Exactly. It is very easy for health care employers to show the gov't that no Americans want their nursing jobs.

Here's one way they do it:

1. Obtain names and addresses of nurses licensed in their state from the BON.

2. Spend big bucks on newspaper ads, ads in nursing publications, and mail expensive glossy, recruitment flyers with promises of a great job and huge sign-on bonuses to the nurses on ther BON list.

3. When nurses call or come in to inquire about a job, the company tells them their are no openings, or just does not contact any of the applicants.

4. They then submit documentation of their recruiting costs and efforts to the gov't, and tell them that their recruiting efforts were unsuccessful. They then apply for permission to import foreign nurses.

This has happened several times that I personally know of in the two states where I have practised nursing.

As I have said before (I know I am a broken record on this topic) there is no nursing shortage. Dept of Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics stats show that there are 500,000 RNs currently licensed in The U.S. working in non-nursing jobs. The latest "shortage" stats show that The U.S. is "short" 100,000 nurses. Do the math- there is actually a surplus of 400,000 registered nurses right now in The U.S. These stats don't include LPNs. There may or may not be a surplus of them, but we don't know, as they were not included in the stats.

I have a nursing web site, and several members there are licensed regostered nurses who no longer work in nursing for all the reasons that nurses here in allnurses have stated. Mainly, working conditions.

Health care corporations have no trouble circumventing U.S. nurses in order to import foreign nurses. They will have an even easier time of it, now that Bush has made importation of foreign workers even easier, AND pushed to eliminate the overtime pay benefit for RNs.

And now, NY state wants to require all RNs to have a BSN- How convenient that most foreign nurses have a BSN, and that New York in often the first destination for foreigners arriving from the Far East to work in The U.S.

These things don't happen by accident. Health care corporations have an agenda. They spend lots of $$ on Washington lobbyists, political contributions, etc to see that they get what they want.

[Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN]

Also note in order to hire a foreign citazen of any sort it must be proven that it is a job no US citazen wants or can fill. (Think migrant worker picking fruit for low wages in the hot sun.) So if US nurses are filling the positions, hospitals are not allowed to bring over foreign workers.

It's a double edged sword. They are BSN prepared and are excellent nurses. It fulfills a dire need. On the other hand it allows the profression and management not to address the issues as to why there is a shortage in the first place.

Exactly. It is very easy for health care employers to show the gov't that no Americans want their nursing jobs.

Here's one way they do it:

1. Obtain names and addresses of nurses licensed in their state from the BON.

2. Spend big bucks on newspaper ads, ads in nursing publications, and mail expensive glossy, recruitment flyers with promises of a great job and huge sign-on bonuses to the nurses on ther BON list.

3. When nurses call or come in to inquire about a job, the company tells them their are no openings, or just does not contact any of the applicants.

4. They then submit documentation of their recruiting costs and efforts to the gov't, and tell them that their recruiting efforts were unsuccessful. They then apply for permission to import foreign nurses.

This has happened several times that I personally know of in the two states where I have practised nursing.

As I have said before (I know I am a broken record on this topic) there is no nursing shortage. Dept of Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics stats show that there are 500,000 RNs currently licensed in The U.S. working in non-nursing jobs. The latest "shortage" stats show that The U.S. is "short" 100,000 nurses. Do the math- there is actually a surplus of 400,000 registered nurses right now in The U.S. These stats don't include LPNs. There may or may not be a surplus of them, but we don't know, as they were not included in the stats.

I have a nursing web site, and several members there are licensed regostered nurses who no longer work in nursing for all the reasons that nurses here in allnurses have stated. Mainly, working conditions.

Health care corporations have no trouble circumventing U.S. nurses in order to import foreign nurses. They will have an even easier time of it, now that Bush has made importation of foreign workers even easier, AND pushed to eliminate the overtime pay benefit for RNs.

And now, NY state wants to require all RNs to have a BSN- How convenient that most foreign nurses have a BSN, and that New York in often the first destination for foreigners arriving from the Far East to work in The U.S.

These things don't happen by accident. Health care corporations have an agenda. They spend lots of $$ on Washington lobbyists, political contributions, etc to see that they get what they want.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

You wrote "Also note in order to hire a foreign citazen of any sort it must be proven that it is a job no US citazen wants or can fill. (Think migrant worker picking fruit for low wages in the hot sun.) So if US nurses are filling the positions, hospitals are not allowed to bring over foreign workers."

Take it from me, that is no assurance. I AM one of those out-of-work tech workers, now pursuing a nursing degree. This post made my blood run cold, because I do believe this can happen. Those Indian workers who provide tech support speak beautiful English, with only a slight accent. I can also see hospitals using this to drive pay DOWN. Supply and demand. What kills me is the wait lists to get into Nursing school here in COlorado is YEARS -- there are thousands of smart, qualified people waiting to get into clinicals. Would the state or federal government address the nursing shortage by fixing this bottleneck? No. That makes too much sense! But based on my own hard experience I can absolutely see them importing foreign, low paid nurses under some emergency exception to the visa laws. This is a train wreck waiting to happen.

:uhoh21:

It's very expensive to bring over a foreign worker and sponsor them, etc. So I'm not sure hiring them is driving costs down. But it sounds like you have more experience in this area than I do.

I think hiring foreign workers can be somewhat of a copout. Why not jump start the nursing programs here, first by finding and paying good wages for instructors and pumping money into the expanding the programs so the waiting list nurses can start today! As you have pointed out.

Then address with why there is a shortage in the first place. Fix what's wrong rather than put a band-aid on a large open wound.

On the other hand, the unit I work on has benefited from seven newly hired Filiopino nurses, with BSNs, and good work skills and ethics. This provides immediate relief and safe ratios. They are making the same hourly rate as the rest of us, so they are not driving the wage down. (I'm a charge nurse and have privy to salary information on those I evaluate.)

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

You wrote "Also note in order to hire a foreign citazen of any sort it must be proven that it is a job no US citazen wants or can fill. (Think migrant worker picking fruit for low wages in the hot sun.) So if US nurses are filling the positions, hospitals are not allowed to bring over foreign workers."

Take it from me, that is no assurance. I AM one of those out-of-work tech workers, now pursuing a nursing degree. This post made my blood run cold, because I do believe this can happen. Those Indian workers who provide tech support speak beautiful English, with only a slight accent. I can also see hospitals using this to drive pay DOWN. Supply and demand. What kills me is the wait lists to get into Nursing school here in COlorado is YEARS -- there are thousands of smart, qualified people waiting to get into clinicals. Would the state or federal government address the nursing shortage by fixing this bottleneck? No. That makes too much sense! But based on my own hard experience I can absolutely see them importing foreign, low paid nurses under some emergency exception to the visa laws. This is a train wreck waiting to happen.

:uhoh21:

It's very expensive to bring over a foreign worker and sponsor them, etc. So I'm not sure hiring them is driving costs down. But it sounds like you have more experience in this area than I do.

I think hiring foreign workers can be somewhat of a copout. Why not jump start the nursing programs here, first by finding and paying good wages for instructors and pumping money into the expanding the programs so the waiting list nurses can start today! As you have pointed out.

Then address with why there is a shortage in the first place. Fix what's wrong rather than put a band-aid on a large open wound.

On the other hand, the unit I work on has benefited from seven newly hired Filiopino nurses, with BSNs, and good work skills and ethics. This provides immediate relief and safe ratios. They are making the same hourly rate as the rest of us, so they are not driving the wage down. (I'm a charge nurse and have privy to salary information on those I evaluate.)

[rasmu]

exactly. it is very easy for health care employers to show the gov't that no americans want their nursing jobs.

everyone should read this recent article from the times of india. it was written for an indian audience. it talks about how indian businessmen are gearing up to target the u.s. healthcare job market.

i've been hearing more and more talk about how college-educated american workers in various occupations are being replaced with overseas workers that are being brought in on work visas. nursing is definitely on the list.

although the number of indian nurses entering the u.s. job market may be small now, and even beneficial at the moment, the number is going to explode within the next 5 years. the numbers as yet are not large enough to effect wages or to provoke layoffs of american workers, but with all of the free trade agreements in place, we are living in a whole new world. people are paying particular attention to the indians, because of what they did to the job market in the computer field. with a country of over 850 million people, they can produce a lot of nurses.

you should read some of the stories about what has happened to people in other fields - company management brought in the foreign replacements, and just fired all of the americans. the rules of the worker visa programs are supposed to prevent that from happening, but they do nothing of the sort. you can't help but worry that healthcare administrators might get the same ideas.

-------------------------

may 2, 2004 pti new delhi: the shortage of nurses in the us has brought a boom in the profession in india, with nursing schools coming up at every nook and corner of major metros and big hospitals grooming their nurses for working in american hospitals.

not a single day passes without placement agencies and even big hospitals putting up ads luring nurses to work in america and how it can change their fortunes. "india is at the threshold of yet another boom in international placement. earlier it was it professionals, now it is nurses. international placement has come of age with this opening of first major migration route to the us for skilled professionals since the collapse of it wave," says dr d k baluja, medical superintendent, jaipur golden hospital, here.

"as of today, by conservative estimates alone, there is a shortfall of about one lakh nurses in the us. other countries like uk, canada and australia are likewise affected. according to us government projections, by the year 2008, another 450,000 nurses may be needed to meet the demand," says mr ravi mittal, director operations, mepco, a manpower recruitment organisation.

"to cash in on the demand, around 15 new nursing schools are coming up in the ncr region alone. big hospitals too have started training their nurses and placement agencies have fast come up in major metros and especially south india," says mr mittal.

"in the us, most youngsters today are not willing to take up such a stressful profession and rather prefer accounting or management jobs. as a result, the shortage has been building up since last 10-15 years," says mr mittal.

the average nurse age in american hospitals today is 46 years, which means there would be serious crisis in next 15 years. however, getting to the us is not just hop-step and go. these nurses need to pass a major bottleneck of the cgfns certification exam. thereafter, it takes a technical process of documentation, processing, visas, placing in appropriate positions and ensuring that they get all the benefits, says dr baluja.

it is for this purpose that placement agencies are fast coming up and even leading hospitals have opened up counselling centres for training the nurses for the cgfns certification exam, he says. the commission on graduates of foreign origin, which conducts these exams earlier did not have a centre in india and the indian nurses who wanted to go to america had to sit for the exam in bangkok.

"however, the americans have now recognised india as a potential source for nurses and the exam would now be conducted at bangalore," says dr baluja.

"out of our first batch of 20 trained nurses which appeared for the exam, 10 have qualified," says mr mittal, noting "we plan to send around 200 nurses this year to the us."

going by the numbers it is very small and all the placement agents together cannot fulfil the demand, he notes. however, the boom in health placement is here to stay and the trend will pick up in india in next two-three years, says dr baluja. the healthcare industry is the new bluechip item and the trend is here to stay, he says.

[suzanne4, RN]

You have forgot one thing. There has been a problem with the Indian nurses being able to pass the TSE exam. Without it, no green card. Nurses do not have the luxury of having a "work permit" available to them, only the green card. Which means English skills equivalent to those of a native. I personally know of a large group of Indian nurses who were brought over, actually to Detroit, on H1-B visas when they were still available, but could not pass TSE and TWE, so no hospital would allow them to begin working.

Now they need to have those exams to get a green card, no way around, unless theyare married to an American. Even if they begin their training tomorrow, it will take about 18 months for them to actually have a green card in hand. And that is if they pass their exams. Nursing is very different in India compared to the way that it is practiced in the US.................

I deal with this on a daily basis and I am not afraid of it. There will more than enough work for everyone. With a green card, the hospitals are not permitted to offer a different rate to those nurses like they could with nurses under an H1-B.

[jgs284]

You have forgot one thing. There has been a problem with the Indian nurses being able to pass the TSE exam. Without it, no green card. Nurses do not have the luxury of having a "work permit" available to them, only the green card. Which means English skills equivalent to those of a native. "

What I have learned from hanging around on this earth for 43 years is, things change. Also, the business aspects of health care (HMO's, hospital administrators) are motivated by money. So what I see happening is realxing the rules for foreign nurses based on an "emergency". Allowing their Indian licensing exams to suffice. That is what happened to the programmers. The hospital's concern is with the bottom line, so rather than address working conditions for nurses, rather than support more US nurse training, they'll lobby for a relaxation of restrictions on foreign nurses based on a "crisis". Imagine the TV ads paid for by corporate interests appealing to people's sense of safety when they go to the hospital. "The Nursing shortage has caused a health care emergency! Your children's safety is at risk! Vote YES on allowing these well-trained Indian nurses to bypass our beaucratic rules!" Then when there are a million Indian nurses in the United States, wages go down. Worry wart me, I suppose.

[jgs284]

I just toured a US government facility with my microbiology class that is attempting to create an inexpensive bioethanol fuel from corn waste products. Do you know they are exporting 15 microbiologist jobs to the Czech republic because these well-trained foreign microbiologists are 1/15-th the price of an American microbiologist. (Buy 1, get 14 free!) I can't believe more people aren't up in arms over this. Here in Colorado unemployment is still bad. The "new jobs" being created are in RETAIL. I can easily see them exporting pathology jobs, from plebotomy to MDs. (I apologize for my poor spelling!) It's happening everywhere and Americans are just letting it happen while we are distracted by this unfortunate war. I do not think nursing will be immune.

[angel337, MSN, RN]

unfortunately, there is no such thing as a "secure" job. even nursing. i once heard a physician who is very knowledgeable about this topic tell another physician " these american nurses think the u.s. is going to continue to kiss their butt in order for them to work...they all will be replaced in the next 20 years". of course, i don't quite see that happening, but it sure looks like it is in the plan.

[suzanne4, RN]

You have forgot one thing. There has been a problem with the Indian nurses being able to pass the TSE exam. Without it, no green card. Nurses do not have the luxury of having a "work permit" available to them, only the green card. Which means English skills equivalent to those of a native. "

What I have learned from hanging around on this earth for 43 years is, things change. Also, the business aspects of health care (HMO's, hospital administrators) are motivated by money. So what I see happening is realxing the rules for foreign nurses based on an "emergency". Allowing their Indian licensing exams to suffice. That is what happened to the programmers. The hospital's concern is with the bottom line, so rather than address working conditions for nurses, rather than support more US nurse training, they'll lobby for a relaxation of restrictions on foreign nurses based on a "crisis". Imagine the TV ads paid for by corporate interests appealing to people's sense of safety when they go to the hospital. "The Nursing shortage has caused a health care emergency! Your children's safety is at risk! Vote YES on allowing these well-trained Indian nurses to bypass our beaucratic rules!" Then when there are a million Indian nurses in the United States, wages go down. Worry wart me, I suppose.

There was a big nursing shortage about 23 years ago. Many nurses were brought over from the Philippines, if they did not pass the American boards they did not work here.

[suzanne4, RN]

I just toured a US government facility with my microbiology class that is attempting to create an inexpensive bioethanol fuel from corn waste products. Do you know they are exporting 15 microbiologist jobs to the Czech republic because these well-trained foreign microbiologists are 1/15-th the price of an American microbiologist. (Buy 1, get 14 free!) I can't believe more people aren't up in arms over this. Here in Colorado unemployment is still bad. The "new jobs" being created are in RETAIL. I can easily see them exporting pathology jobs, from plebotomy to MDs. (I apologize for my poor spelling!) It's happening everywhere and Americans are just letting it happen while we are distracted by this unfortunate war. I do not think nursing will be immune.

You can export any type of job that you want, but there are limits on who and what can be imported.