SEC assessment ? A JOKE !!

AVKON · Jan 16, 2009

what i can say the joke is, is that these regulatory bodies, fully aware that a lot of their applicants apply from outside of canada (ie, their home countries), are now saying:

"so you want to come to canada to work as an rn? come here first as a tourist, take a sec assessment, then we'll see if you're good enough for us. oh, by the way, the assessment takes anywhere from a day to 5 days, the results come out in a month or two, and we (at least crnbc) meet once a month to decide on these results... so if your results come to us this month but after our meeting, you'll have to wait until next month.

so go sell your cows, pawn your family heirlooms, or take a loan from a co-operative (if you're lucky) or from a loan shark (if you're desperate) and come to canada for your sec by [insert date here] or else we'll throw your application out the window and you'll have to start over, and pay all those postage fees, all over again.

oh, and did we mention that you won't have a job yet when you land in canada?"

because there is no way any nurse here in the philippines can raise the money for the airfare alone without taking out a loan of some kind, not to mention money for living expenses in canada... all this to take an assessment which, from my understanding, is what the crne is supposed to be, but now we have another test altogether that is neither "in place of" nor "a precursor to" the crne.

my apologies for the rant... but this sec thing has got me all worked up. while i am still optimistic about working in bc, and while i do see and understand the reason behind sec, i do feel that consideration for iens who are not yet in canada has not been given. there is absolutely no assurance of anything, not even a time frame of how long the new process takes. so while the sec is a serious business, imposing sec on just anybody without consideration of how they will accomplish it in the first place, is just plain insane.

okay, i'm much calmer now. comments?

Maezando · Jan 16, 2009

@ rn canada

this has just been started under a special the ien project and it is being implemented at the university where i teach.

trust me , i will send my childern to different one.

it was implemented because many ien's were entering the workforce (fully licensed) without being able to actually do the job competently. in some cases it was a lack of skills (physical assessment skills, medications, technology) and in many cases it was a lack of critical thinking skills and familiarity with the role of the rn in canadian hospitals.

>> educated outside canad doesn't mean you're lack in skills. " critical thinking skills " maybe slightly different from person to person even in the same class.

some ien's who are already working are being sent for sec in order to assess their learning needs. once that is known then the employer has to invest the time and money to get them up to speed since they are already hired.

>> while everyone is suffering the global ressions, business must be good for the service providers. i don't see they will see any difference after that. when you're already working in the industry , you can learn by yourself. after all , they've already cleared crne exam.what are you talking about ? those classes are for fresh grads. i think it is a practical joke.

now that the project is up and running nurses needing registration in bc who received their education in another country are being sent for the further assessment depending on:

-their basic education and what that included

-the number of years they have not been practicing...this is a big factor. many ien's have a large gap since they last practiced and some have not practiced at all since graduation in their country of origin.

>>that's not true , i know one of my hong kong collegue working for 8 yrs in actue care and involved in sar crisis is to go for full blown 3 days sec assessment.

my judgment about the sec in terms of its value is pending but the motive is pure ie public protection.

>> pending for *big time failure*

by using the word " public protection " and saying what you think is right doesn't mean you're right.it's just an insult to other country's education system and i wonder why canadian nurses are leaving elsewhere too.

my point is if you're not sure or if you do not want us come to your country and work , that's fine . but don't ask ien to pay $200 ++ for so-called "initial assessment package fee" just to go for sec and pay more and more.

do you think money can earn easily in third word country ?

do you know how much is the round-trip ticket cost ??

is it difficult for someone to say "no" ?? !!!

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · Jan 16, 2009

Because there is NO WAY any nurse here in the Philippines can raise the money for the airfare alone without taking out a loan of some kind, not to mention money for living expenses in Canada... all this to take an assessment which, from my understanding, is what the CRNE is SUPPOSED TO BE, but now we have another test altogether that is neither "in place of" nor "a precursor to" the CRNE.

Actually the CRNE does NOT assess fitness to practice in any concrete sense. It assesses the ability to memorize information and use critical thinking skills. Both of my daughters, smart and educated young women but not nurses, could pass the CRNE simply by studying the prep guide. But that doesn't mean they could BE nurses because they cannot perform the most basic of nursing skills.

My apologies for the rant... but this SEC thing has got me all worked up. While I am still optimistic about working in BC, and while I do see and UNDERSTAND the reason behind SEC, I do feel that consideration for IENs who are NOT YET IN CANADA has not been given. There is absolutely no assurance of anything, not even a time frame of how long the new process takes. So while the SEC is a serious business, imposing SEC on just anybody without consideration of HOW THEY WILL ACCOMPLISH IT in the first place, is just plain insane.
Okay, I'm much calmer now. Comments?

And this is all Canada's fault somehow? Should Canada not give consideration first to those nurses who have been educated there? Since the awareness of retrogression in the US has finally penetrated and Canada became the second-best go-to destination, the number of applications to provincial colleges of nursing has sky rocketed and that's not Canada's fault either. Those same colleges have a mandate to protect the public from unskilled and unethical nursing practice. Period. "...imposing SEC on just anybody without consideration of HOW THEY WILL ACCOMPLISH IT in the first place, is just plain insane..." Let's turn that around: Applying for registration as a nurse in a foreign country without being certain you meet their criteria will definitely result in great expense, a lot of time consumed and no guarantee of success at the end. Enter at your own risk.

AVKON · Jan 16, 2009

janfrn, i have read some of your posts in this forum and i respect your experience. please do not take this discussion as an attack to you or to canadian rns, and do know that bc is my first choice (i have a family and i believe canada, not the us, is the best place for me to raise my family), that is why i am so disappointed with this sec.

actually the crne does not assess fitness to practice in any concrete sense. it assesses the ability to memorize information and use critical thinking skills. both of my daughters, smart and educated young women but not nurses, could pass the crne simply by studying the prep guide. but that doesn't mean they could be nurses because they cannot perform the most basic of nursing skills.

then the crne should be reviewed and maybe re-done... if you are saying that the sec is a better assessment of basic nursing competency, since it both assesses memorization and critical thinking and skills, then crne should be replaced by sec, because what you are saying a crne passer may still not be fit to practice.

and this is all canada's fault somehow? should canada not give consideration first to those nurses who have been educated there? since the awareness of retrogression in the us has finally penetrated and canada became the second-best go-to destination, the number of applications to provincial colleges of nursing has sky rocketed and that's not canada's fault either. those same colleges have a mandate to protect the public from unskilled and unethical nursing practice. period. "...imposing sec on just anybody without consideration of how they will accomplish it in the first place, is just plain insane..." let's turn that around: applying for registration as a nurse in a foreign country without being certain you meet their criteria will definitely result in great expense, a lot of time consumed and no guarantee of success at the end. enter at your own risk.

of course canada should give first consideration to canadian-educated nurses... however, i was referring to iens - internationally-educated nurses, and not canadian-educated nurses. i was also told by a crnbc registration assessor that "you are required to take the sec because a review of your file has indicated that you have less than 12 years of education before university. " so it does not matter if i aced my local board exams or if i got straight as in my nursing subjects... if i have less than 12 years of education before university, my competency as a nurse is in question.

but that is not the point of my post. my point is this: if you go to canada to study, you go on a student's visa, and you prepare for it by having funds, having your parents/relatives support you, etc. if you go to canada to work, you go on a work visa and you prepare for it by having experience, education, and a work contract. you see the other side of the crevasse, estimate if you can jump it, and have both eyes open when you jump. with the sec, it's like jumping with both eyes closed and having a ball-and-chain on your leg. why? if you fail it, you can take coursework.... but you are not on a student's visa. if you pass it and crnbc declares you eligible to write the crne, you can apply for a job and apply for a work permit... but this needs to be done outside canada (please, please, i would love to be proven wrong here!).

why make someone go to canada in the first place, without offer for work and knowing full well that work permits cannot be filed from inside canada? why disrupt the "apply for a work permit/bc pnp after i get my job offer after crnbc states that i am eligible to write the crne" flow (note that i would not have left my country until after i secured a job in canada)?

what if i turn the situation around: you want to work in my country and i tell you to come here and i'll see if you can work here after you come here?? how would that make you feel?

bottom line is --- it is okay for regulatory bodies to make sure we're competent. trust me, i won't want to touch a patient unless i know what i'm doing, i'm assigned at the or fer cryin' out loud! there's no problem with proving how much i know, there's no problem with having to take exams. i will pay to write the exams. i will pay to take whatever coursework i need. i will pay whatever fees the regulatory body asks. but asking me to pay for airfare & expenses to come to canada for an assessment without even a timeframe from assessment to eligibility (assuming of course that i pass) is just insane. at least assuring me that i can file for work permit from inside canada, or that i won't have to buy a roundtrip ticket, or at least giving me a non-critical job in some obscure part in the hospital to pay for my living expenses while waiting for this fiasco to blow over would be a very kind gesture, but there's none.

if i had that much money to spend freely (roundtrip ticket to bc, pay for rent and food for at least 3 months) in the first place, i wouldn't bother taking up nursing, i'd just file for an immigrant visa, pay an agency to do the legwork, and work up a tan for the 2 years it takes for the papershuffling to clear. but i don't.

btw, please visit my thread here and tell me what you think.

Fiona59 · Jan 16, 2009

You know what, when my family came to Canada 40 years ago, their education and skills were only teste once they had obtained landed status. My mother never worked again in her field. Her qualifications weren't recognized. My father started at the bottom of his field because his overseas experience didn't count. This was at a time when migrants were being begged to settle in Canada.

At least you are being given the chance to find out in advance what your employment options are.

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · Jan 16, 2009

How would it be better for a health region in BC to give you a job, bring you over, pay you a generous relocation allowance that would include reimbursement for many of the costs associated with the assessment process, and then find out that you aren't going to be able to do the job you were hired for, then having to pay to send you back? (I'm using "you" in the general sense and not an individual one.) Would anyone consider that to be fiscally responsible? And what about the nurses from other provinces in Canada who might have moved to BC at the same time who didn't have any of those generous perks provided for them? As someone who has moved from one province to another, I know exactly what that's all about and how much out of pocket I was in the end.

To follow up on Fiona59's comment, when my ancestors came to Canada some 150 or so years ago, they came with the clothes on their backs. The cost of weeks-long trans-Atlantic passage in the sardine-can conditions of the steerage compartment of a wooden ship took every penny they could raise. They lived in poverty and worked as farmers and labourers to support their families. They left behind parents and siblings, in some cases wives and children, and never had any contact nor ever saw them again. It was the measure of their commitment to their dream that they did this and never looked back. Of course times have changed and now people travel great distances in less than a day in air-conditioned comfort and have much bigger dreams.

Ginger's Mom, MSN, RN · Jan 16, 2009

I am finding this thread very interesting. My daughter is in medical school and before she graduates she has to complete an assessment exam prior to getting a license. It is required of all doctors. Foreign educated doctors have to complete a year of residency before they can touch a patient.

I see that many Americans and American Green card holders go to the cheapest nursing school so they can practice in the USA. The American NCLEX is not the same as going to school in the USA. I think American Nursing should take Canada's lead to do an assessment test of every IEN prior to touch an patient.

Canada is not a charity which give relocation and free tests away. Neither is the USA. I am sorry people don't have the air fare to come over. Instead of asking the Canadian Government to spend it's money for a test. Why not ask if a group of IEN could pay to fly to their home country to perform the evaluation. It would be cheaper to fly a few evaluator then dozens of individuals. That would be one solution.

AVKON · Jan 17, 2009

you know what, when my family came to canada 40 years ago, their education and skills were only teste once they had obtained landed status.

like i said, i don't have trouble with being tested. and if i don't measure up to what is expected of me, by god, i would want to know where i am lacking and how to improve myself in that area. but why not test me after i have landed in canada?

how would it be better for a health region in bc to give you a job, bring you over, pay you a generous relocation allowance that would include reimbursement for many of the costs associated with the assessment process, and then find out that you aren't going to be able to do the job you were hired for, then having to pay to send you back? (i'm using "you" in the general sense and not an individual one.) would anyone consider that to be fiscally responsible? and what about the nurses from other provinces in canada who might have moved to bc at the same time who didn't have any of those generous perks provided for them? as someone who has moved from one province to another, i know exactly what that's all about and how much out of pocket i was in the end.

unless i am paralyzed in all four limbs or my mind stops absorbing new information, what's stopping the health institution from saying "i'm sorry, but we've realized you are lacking in [xxxx] field. however, we are still interested in retaining you and if you are willing to compromise, here are some courses you can take at this college/university to get you up to speed. you will lose some work hours since you have to go to school, but we will be willing to extend you a forgivable loan on this as well."

it's a win-win situation, if you ask me. you get your nurses, you get to mold them the way you want them, and we get the work we need to sustain ourselves and our families.

now you mentioned sending people back... can you give me a concrete example of this? what work was being asked to be done, that a nurse could not do? "could not" and "will not" are two different things. if that nurse was hired and could not do nursing tasks, then that nurse should be sent home and better screening of applicants or clearer job descriptions should be done. if that nurse was hired and will not do nursing tasks, or was found lacking and will not do bridging programs, then that nurse should be send home and the nurse needs an attitude check.

to follow up on fiona59's comment, when my ancestors came to canada some 150 or so years ago, they came with the clothes on their backs. the cost of weeks-long trans-atlantic passage in the sardine-can conditions of the steerage compartment of a wooden ship took every penny they could raise. they lived in poverty and worked as farmers and labourers to support their families. they left behind parents and siblings, in some cases wives and children, and never had any contact nor ever saw them again. it was the measure of their commitment to their dream that they did this and never looked back. of course times have changed and now people travel great distances in less than a day in air-conditioned comfort and have much bigger dreams.

now what if, when they came to canada, they were told that there was no work for them, or that nobody was willing to hire them, or that it was illegal for them to work under their visa, and must return home, apply for a proper visa, and then come back?

Ginger's Mom, MSN, RN · Jan 17, 2009

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/135100/3-axed-Filipino-nurses-seek-reinstatement-in-Canadian-health-facility

Deported nurses in Canada.

Secondly what process would you country provide if Canadian nurses wished to practice in your country?

I personally believe in equal treatment. The way your country would treat Canadian is the way you should be treated. I feel that is fair.

Just a tip, when I go into another country and I am guest and not a citizen I realize it is a privilege being there and don't complain about their practices. And I add to their economy and not ask for a hand out.

AVKON · Jan 18, 2009

"We think and I believe that most of our employers think that this has been a very successful initiative so far. We can't expect that 100 per cent of these nurses are going to be successful. We can't even expect that of our Canadian grads," she said.

OMG, we're talking about FIVE nurses? And I thought there was an exodus of incompetent nurses everywhere, Filipino nurses in particular. Granted there may be a lot more that did not make the news, but breach of confidentiality, "unsuitability" for work (maybe she just can't reach most of the stuff on the shelves, Filipinos aren't too tall especially our females), if only THESE cases made the news, then other cases are either the same or of less significance. If Canadian graduates themselves need polishing, why expect more from IENs who have not even experienced the Canadian healthcare system?

Please, any other examples?

While I am not sure how YOU would go about to be an RN here, what I do know is if you're not doing something expected of/from you, we tell you. We don't just give you the boot after a few months. If you've been to the Philippines, you will see that we are a patient and understanding people.... maybe that's why Filipino workers are valued everywhere but in our own country.

Ginger's Mom, MSN, RN · Jan 18, 2009

Those are 5 nurses being deported. There are many more nurses who require prolonged education and nurses in Alberta who are not allowed to practice at the RN level they are allowed to practice as LPNs.

Philippine nurses self assessment, job experience, and education once carefully evaluated it was noted that these nurses practice at a PN level. That is the reason for the assessment. Americans ( and I am assuming Canadians) do not discriminate on size, weight or height. You have to remember these 5 nurses represented the best of best that the Philippines had to offer. Not only that the government had spent thousands of dollars to train them and wanted them to succeed.

In Canada, the citizens pay a very heavy tax burden to have good health care, allowing incompetent nurses to practice is not good use of tax money.

For your information, no American or Canadian nurse is allowed to practice ( only for very special cases and then not for employment. So I would not get the boot, I would not be invited into the neighborhood and couldn't even get in the door to file an application.

You say Filipino workers are valued, I say every worker is of value. It doesn't matter where they come from as long as they are competent. Every worker should be equal regardless of their nationality.

Fiona59 · Jan 18, 2009

I don't see a lot of patience or understanding of the Canadian system being displayed in some of the posts. But I'm willing to grant that the internet doesn't allow for the display of emotion and linguistic examples.

Now, why should a province give an overseas educated nurse basically an interest free loan and paid employment to upgrade their education when they won't do it for nurses already working within the system? For the money spent on bringing over the nurses who wound up working as LPNs, Capital Health could have sent quite a few experienced LPNs back to school to obtain their RN credentials. But they chose not to. They wanted trained, experienced staff on the floor.

We do not discriminate based on height, weight or sex. If they did, most of my unit would be filing grievances. To bring those issues into the mix, just demonstrates the lack of understanding of the Cdn. system. If anything employers go out of their way to demonstrate they are not discriminating and offer safe work place classes and subsidized gym memberships and weight loss programmes.

The fact is we don't all get what we want or what we think we deserve. We have many thousands of immigrants who came here qualified to do things in their homelands and when their credentials were found not to be up to standard they either had to retrain to get those qualifications or find a new means of employment.