Seasoned nurses eat their young?!

Brownms46 · Aug 5, 2003

Originally posted by teeituptom
Yes we eat some and some of them are pretty damn tasty also. yyaahhoooooooo

I'm sorry...but :rotfl: :roll I just can't help myself...:rotfl: :roll

fergus51 · Aug 5, 2003

Being short with students is just counterproductive. in my experience, the rude staff nurses tend to be on one or two units of a hospital when the administration has allowed them to take over with their negativity. They are rude to both students and their colleagues. Next thing that happens is the good nurses start leaving, and no new grads apply to work there. If they are lucky they can con people from out of town to come work there, but once they realize what they signed on for, they quit too. Patient care suffers as short staffing becomes even worse than on other floors.

I consider it a professional responsibility to do what I can to help students learn. I don't do their homework for them, but I am patient with them and never rude. If we don't provide them with a place they can learn, we'll be the ones suffering in the end.

Brownms46 · Aug 5, 2003

Originally posted by maythen
I'm a nursing student who's also http://register.abracat.com/c2/findajob/results/index.xmlgraduating in December, and I share your frustration. The hospital my class is in was undergoing some really difficult times (an FBI inquirey, charges of medical fraud, and charges of unneccessary surgical procedures). At the same time they were grossly understaffed and taking in students from several different schools (though not all at the same time or days).
Poop rolls down hill, and (here at least) the bottom of the hill is the students. Any problem that arose (no matter what it was or what day it occured) the nearest student got blamed. I had a charge nurse literally screaming at me for almost ten minutes over a paperwork mistake that was made on a Saturday (my class is only there on wednesday and thursday) and which "may" have been done by an LVN from a totally different school. When another student got our teacher to extract me, the charge nurse chased me down later, specifically to tell me she was NOT sorry because all students are alike and we should be stopping each other from being stupid instead of claiming we weren't there.

I've heard that old adage "nurses eat their young" and unfortuantly some people take it to heart, both nurses and students. One of my teachers spent the entire symester telling me I was "worthless", "stupid", and "someday you're going to kill somebody and I'm going to be there to laugh at you". We work almost exclusively by ourselves, with little supervision and are not allowed to ask questions of other nurses. However, there are a few procedures that we must have our teacher supervise. No matter how well prepared I was or what the circumstance was my teacher always managed to find a way for me to be wrong, often not telling me what it was other than to laugh at me and say "only if you want your patient to die" while she walked away. (in one case it was because i had grabbed a 250 cc bag and she wanted me to use a 1000cc bag. the patient was fluid restricted and had been given this med in a 250cc bag for four days. i triple checked the med book and it said to give the med in a 250cc bag too) This was a nearly daily occurance and I spent most of that symester's walk home after clinical weeping my eyes raw.
There are also students who feel the need to do the same thing to one another. It doesn't much matter how your grades are or how well you do at clinical, at least not to them. What matters (in my class at least) is your ability to kiss the teachers butt and be part of "the in crowd".
But there are good nurses too. There's the nurse who will go out of her way to find a student to show her "this really nifty new shot we're giving on the floor". Or the nurse who thinks to warn you that the patient you're getting is full of GoLytly, is combative, and throws the bed pan. There are nurses that have made the difference just by a word or a smile between me giving up and dropping out or else coming back the next day. There are wonderful nurses out there. Just as there are wonderful students. And wonderful teachers.
I agree that some students are nothing but trouble. But I know that not all of us are. There are plenty of us that do all our work and then some, without complaint or problem. We alert our nurse to important changes in status and leave her be the rest of the time. We chart well and work our butts off to be a blessing instead of a burden. In my school it's the teacher who does the supervising and question answering of students, so we're not much involved in the nurses working unless it's to report an important change or to give report before we leave. If you're not a well prepared student you're a student sent home. And if you miss more than one day of clinical for ANY reason you fail the class. We're not allowed to sit down (even to chart) and if you're caught standing around you get sent home. We're not supposed to take breaks, even to go to the bathroom. (though I admit that after my second kidney infection I started breaking that rule).
While I'm not a nurse yet, I can try to see both sides. I know there are students that are trouble. I know there are nurses that take out their bad temper on students because they know there isn't much we can do about it. Personally, I see it as a sort of flaw in the system as a whole. The system that allowed nurses on PCU to have 9 patients at a time. The system that allows nurses (like the charge nurse that went after me) to be under enough stress that she *does* reach that point. The same system that instructs students to "press your body against the wall and cast your eyes down" whenever Dr. X walks near you. The system that allows a teacher to shred her students self-esteem to ribbons just because she can, or to give the students she perfers a 100% on tests they didn't take because the student wanted a week longer vacation. I only use the term "the system" because I don't kinow what else to call it, other than the monster that ate health care.
It's bad business all the way around. As a student, there isn't much I can do to change it other than to try to be the best student I can be, to remember the good nurses, and to try my hardest to be one of them when I graduate. Once I'm a nurse and I'm ready to handle it, I'm hoping to try to get involved in changing some of the policies that I see which appear to be contributing to this problem. Just for myself I plan on taking an "assertiveness training course". Being a nursing student has shown me that I'm very good at standing up for other people, but not so good at standing up for myself.
Good luck to you. And as I keep telling myself. It's almost over. It's almost over. :-)

This is one of the saddest posts I have yet to read! (((((((((maythen)))))))) Don't you worry not one little bit, because I totally believe, what goes around, comes around! One day the Lord might just allow that "woman" and I use the term loosely, to be have to ask you for help one day!

You just hold your head high, and KNOW that you are ONE tough cookie!!! But you know what?? You stand up for yourself just fine. Cause just by going back to that class everyday, and being on top of things, you let that """"" know that NO ONE is going to stop your progress! YOU GO GURL..!!!

EmeraldNYL, BSN, RN · Aug 5, 2003

Maythen, this is terrible. I know I would have dropped out if I was in your shoes. What they are doing is abuse, pure and simple. AND with complete disregard for your husband's life. I find it appaling that stuff like this actually happens in nursing education. No wonder the nursing profession has problems. I don't know what recourse you have besides complaining to the heads of the school-- maybe complaining to the state nurse's association or the credentialing center of the school? I would definitely talk to a laywer. It is so terrible that you had to go through that.

Tink RN · Aug 5, 2003

Originally posted by ceecel.dee
If time allows, I like our nurses to challenge the students' "comfort zone" a bit. We find that most students will say,"I've never done that before" when asked if they would like to "cath a real patient" or whatever, content to let the experience of getting over the "first time jitters" slip away. We try to ask "have you had the theory and lab practice" on a particular skill, and, given we have the time (and inclination...can vary from nurse to nurse), we push a little for the actual "hands on"...and have recieved more than a few letters of appreciation (a few weeks to months afterward) about helping them get over their fear.
You students must be able to step up and enthusiastically show a desire to learn! Most nurses are rather nurturing, but the real interest must be shown for us to think our time will be well spent. We really do like to make a difference.:kiss

No offense ... but challenging a student's "comfort zone" is their instructors job ... not mine and MY malpractice insurance doesn't cover students. :rolleyes:

SteelTownRN · Aug 5, 2003

As a nursing isntructor, I work hard to create an anvironment of mutual respect between me and the staff. I have found that when the staff knows that I bring them students who are prepared and ready to learn (or be disciplined by me), then they are much more open to working with the students. They know that if there is a problem, they can pull me aside and let me know, because I value their opinions. I am aware that not all nurses like having students around, and I just try to keep my students out of their areas, not always easy, but I try.

One thing that I have implemented is a "recognition" program. The students can document on a GEM (going the extra mile) form a short thank you to a nurse, staff member, MD, etc.... I forward these to the unit manager, who gives them out at staff meetings in front of all nurses. You'd be surprised how this works to pave the way for future groups, and for nurses to open themselves to working with students. I tell the students that it is not the responsibility of the nurses to teach them, it is my respoinsibility. If the nurse does, then they are going out of their way to help them.

Then, there is always the student that is a pill to be around at clinicals. Some think that I can't teach them anything new as they work as a tech/NA/PCT, whatever. Some just don't want to be nurses, and haven't recognized that yet. Some are just plain lazy. I can deal with all of the above as the teacher. I tell them that they should keep themselves busy 100% of the time that we are on the unit, or I'll be by to begin the quiz session. Usually, that works. The students who are unproductive on the units and don't appreciate clinical time are the ones who are putting themselves at risk for not being successful on state boards. I firmly believe that the more experience that you ahve to draw upon when presented with a board question, the clearer the question becomes.

I can clearly see two sides to the student on the unit issue. As an instuctor, the best thing that I could hear when I arrive on the unit is "Wow, the students are here today. Thank God!"

iliket3 · Aug 5, 2003

I as a student have come across all types of nurses so far. I do understand the position they're put in because I'm capable of putting myself in their shoes. I've been in similar situations with training individuals for new positions and having a stressful workload on top of it. However, those that are rude will get their due someday. I'm confident of that. I am more amazed by the laziness of some nurses that I've come across. Yes, they do exist.

At first I was very discouraged by the rudeness of some of these people. There are times I wonder how in the world they got their license. But I go in prepared and ask alot of questions to the appropriate people and at the appropriate times.

Also important to remember is that working with all types of personalities is part of the learning process. So after getting "pushed off the horse a few times," just get up, brush off your knees and get right back on. Try to learn to deal effectively with the more "challenging" personalities and it will carry you far into the future.

flashpoint · Aug 7, 2003

For the most part, I love it when we have LPN students on the floor. They're a big help as far as getting baths and such done and as they progress through their program, they take a good chunk of the patient load. There are certain things that I expect from students though (I expect te same things from seasoned nurses too.) 1. Do what you're there to do and do it right. If you don't know how or for some reason can't, speak up and get some help. 2. Be there to learn, not to show off how fast you can give a bath and get other things done. It's great to be good at what you do and be knowlegeable about what you are doing, but learn something new every day. 3. Treat everyone with the same respect and dignity. The welfare mom with scabies is just as important as the sweet old lady with pneumonia. Don't judge anyone by social staus, disease process, or intelligence. This goes for nurses too...the slender beautiful nurse is no better than the short dumpy looking one (like me!). 4. Be prepared. It's not my job to do your careplan or look up your meds or provide you with a pen and a stethoscope. I'd be happy to help you if there are oparts you just can understand, but I expect you to at least make an effort before you come to me with questions. 5. Be willing and ready to jump in and help. It's amazing what you can learn! :-)

VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN · Aug 7, 2003

Very good posts. All very insightful, some very unsettling. Yes, nursing is a profession that encourages "eating the young." This phenomenon is called horizontal violence and has been explored at length in the literature. Basically, when a group feels oppressed and not valued by society, it turns inward with violence directed towards itself. Very self-destructive. I have found that the worse offenders are very insecure, jealous, and competitive individuals who try to bolster their own poor self-esteem by putting others down. These mean-spirited, hypocritical individuals make "mountains" out of others "mole-hills," whilst they themselves are often guilty of much worse crimes. Sadly, the horizontal violence often begins in nursing programs. This is where I, as a nursing instructor, can make a big difference. I strive to treat each student with respect. I also try to treat each of my fellow instructors with dignity and respect and will not participate in the gossip, rancor that may be going on. (One of my fellow instructors actually tried to destroy me professionally, but I refuse to retaliate or say anything bad about her. God is my defense :).)

live4today, RN · Aug 7, 2003

Originally posted by Brownms46
.......what goes around, comes around! One day the Lord might just allow that "woman" and I use the term loosely, to have to ask you for help one day!

AND just MAYBE....."that woman" will wind up being one of your future patients. Can't you just imagine that scene now.

That woman checks into the hospital on said nursing student's floor and becomes assigned to her. Said nursing student enters that woman's room and introduces herself as her nurse. :chuckle

To top that off.......just maybe you'll have the chance to have her butt cheeks at the end of one of the shots you'll have to administer one day. :chuckle Give it to her good, nursing student! :chuckle :roll :chuckle

live4today, RN · Aug 7, 2003

Originally posted by VickyRN
........Yes, nursing is a profession that encourages "eating the young."

and....let's not forget that nurses also "eat their old".

My my my.......oppression, oppression, oppression...... :rolleyes:

gwenith, BSN, RN · Aug 7, 2003

Originally posted by VickyRN
Very good posts. All very insightful, some very unsettling. Yes, nursing is a profession that encourages "eating the young." This phenomenon is called horizontal violence and has been explored at length in the literature. Basically, when a group feels oppressed and not valued by society, it turns inward with violence directed towards itself. Very self-destructive. I have found that the worse offenders are very insecure, jealous, and competitive individuals who try to bolster their own poor self-esteem by putting others down. These mean-spirited, hypocritical individuals make "mountains" out of others "mole-hills," whilst they themselves are often guilty of much worse crimes. Sadly, the horizontal violence often begins in nursing programs. This is where I, as a nursing instructor, can make a big difference. I strive to treat each student with respect. I also try to treat each of my fellow instructors with dignity and respect and will not participate in the gossip, rancor that may be going on. (One of my fellow instructors actually tried to destroy me professionally, but I refuse to retaliate or say anything bad about her. God is my defense :).)

Vicky - this is the answer to the hoizontal violence that has beset our profession. If we each one of use decides not to pass it on then eventually it will no longer be a problem.