Sanity Check Needed for Degree Plan

firstinfamily, RN · Sep 29, 2014

Most states are requiring NP to have doctorates now!!! Have you thought about doing a dietician type degree??

VivaLaVespaGirl, BSN, MSN · Sep 29, 2014

Most states are requiring NP to have doctorates now!!! Have you thought about doing a dietician type degree??

I don't actually believe this is the case. I think that a graduate degree is still the standard, although a DNP may become increasingly preferred.

OP, if you only have a BS, you will need to do some research on universities in your area that offer ABSN. They will all have their own requirements and cost breakdowns, though, given the competitive environment for nursing, they will all be pretty picky about GPA, past life experience, volunteerism, etc. You especially want to look at the prerequisite requirements for the schools you want to apply to as that will greatly determine whether or not you are qualified.

Best of luck to you!

HouTx, BSN, MSN, EdD · Sep 29, 2014

Admission to the 'accelerated' BSN & entry-level MSN programs in my area is based upon comprehensive GPA, not just pre-reqs. They can pick and choose because of the continuing masses trying to jump on the "nursing is a wonderful & lucrative career as long as you don't have to actually work as an RN" bandwagon. Entrance requirements remain very high.

Wile E Coyote, ASN, RN · Sep 29, 2014

Expand more on what "nutritional healing" would entail. Consider the scope of practice of NP's in your desired state/area, the economic viability of your business (assuming you plan private practice) and your ability to effectively incorporate mainstream allopathic treatment methods. I'm highlighting these points because it seems to me you are looking towards quite a niche market/practice and there can be some heavy downsides to not having a reasonable "plan B".

biochemist · Sep 29, 2014

Dear Wiley, (and thanks to others ideas)

Please allow me to thrash around this huge subject.

Nutritional healing involve several areas:

-preventive meicine

-weight loss

-complementary care for serious diseases like CVD, cancer, alzheimers, etc.

Here are several piecemeal observatons about this area:

-terminal cancer (4th stage) are not checked for vitamin D status, CRP, tc.

-similar for other ailments CoQ10 effective against congstive heart disease

-who eats 10 vegetables a day?

I have been in the vitamin industry for several decades and developed the grape seed extract process.

Now here's the reality sandwich: I think it will take the medical establishment 50 years to discover things involving diet and supplements that have been known for 30 years already. Typically, hospitals put the nutritionist (dietitian) in the basement and see the subject as calories. But phytochemicals and supplements can make a big difference. This has been emphasized recently by work in functional medicine (Bland), where it has been discovered that phytos turn on genes necessary for healing. (epigenetics).

This is the elephant in the living room that no one will acknowledge. How to deliver it?

-

dudette10, MSN, RN · Oct 1, 2014

Considering many states still require NPs to have collaborative agreements with MDs, your question shouldn't be "Who will deliver it?" MDs are going to want to know "How do you bill for it?"

biochemist · Oct 1, 2014

Quote: MDs are going to want to know "How do you bill for it?"

And the billing system is oriented towards letting you get sick, then applying an expensive drug, often.

I just sat in on a doctor presentation to a cancer patient, 4th stage. The docs had intoned that she would die within a year, 3 years ago. The docs said she had a blood clot in her heart, and cancer of the heart. They were promoting a drug for the clot that costs $100,000 a month. The doc said, quote, "I would give this to my very mother." It turned out that there was no blood clot, and she is recovered today. They also had her on chemo, which is does little good for 4th stage. I advised her to ask the chemo doc what are the advantages of the drug in her case. (The British medical system says that Alimta only gives a few months extra life.) The doc replied "The drug kills the cancer."

So you can see, if you push expensive drugs and behave yourself, your treatment can be a train wreck otherwise. Your credentials will not be questioned by the board.

But the public is catching on. Wait times for those doing nutritional and supplement counseling are 6 months and longer. Even "wellness coaches" are a booming business, requiring no credentials except a willingness to do preventive medicine. And there is another element to these coaches: a recognition that people need some type of personal caring beyond a mechanical treatment and "Next!"

Docs are constrained by the government-pharma system to do one type of therapy only. If you are 4th stage cancer, for instance, and there is no useful drug, they can offer only palliative care, and you're dead. They won't even say that honestly in most cases.

So how this plays out I don't know. Big pharma has been battling the supplement industry for decades. A recent FDA activity was to send threatening letters to cherry growers, not to mention tart cherries are good for stopping arthritis pain. (They are.) So far, every time the FDA has been sued over this activity, they lost, but they keep on. (The original law suit was in 1990, over folic acid to preent birth defects, and aspirin as a heart medicine. The agency was suppressing public information on both these. ) A recent activity of the FDA was to declare tobacco vaporizers as causing cancer. Turns out states are upset that they can't collect the tobacco tax on the vapes, which avoid the tar.

I mention all this so any reader can see the hidden context. I personally think that a person should turn away from getting rich in medicine to a consideration of helping people.

biochemist · Oct 1, 2014

Quote: Masses of people applying to be an RN.

Yes, and to be fair, the government has destroyed and moved offshore many of the job opportunities for people. Medicine is funded by the government, so it's a source of jobs. Meanwhile, 100% of our vitamins are made in China in a totally unegulated environment. Why? US regulation and taxes have driven US vitamin manufacturers out of business.

As n example, I was involved with a US company making grape seed extract, an anti-oxidant. Reams of paperwork included the requirent that the spent grape seeds be treated as "toxic waste." This involved shipping to a waste dmp site in Nevada, a very expensive poposition. They were just grape seeds, not toxic.

So you see why the unemployment rate among young people is 50%. I'd advise as a minimum to vote for those who have business experience or will hire those who do.

Vote for the Romneys. If you don't like him, hold your nose and vote for him anyway.

Why? Because he had actual business experience. I don't care if he was a failure at it.

If you have a better solution, let me know, and I will agree to it.

elkpark · Oct 1, 2014

If your real interest is nutrition rather than allopathic, "Western" medicine, you may want to go the naturopathic or dietician route (although I'm not sure you need any kind of degree or credential at all to do "nutritional healing"). You're likely to have a hard time finding a job and a collaborating physician who will let you do what you say you want to pursue. There is always the option of locating in a state with independent practice for NPs, and creating your own practice, but I would guess you'll have a hard time getting insurance companies to pay you enough to make a decent living unless you are practicing mainstream medicine. Also, given the views you're voicing here, I predict you're going to be v. unhappy in nursing school, which is organized around and focused on mainstream medicine/nursing.

Also as already noted, most schools are not interested in what you are "capable of" going forward as much as they are in your existing academic track record. Fortunately for you, there are tons of online proprietary NP programs that are little more than diploma mills and will take anyone with a pulse and a checkbook (this is one of the reasons that the markets in many areas are rapidly becoming flooded with NPs).

biochemist · Oct 1, 2014

I don't actually believe this is the case. I think that a graduate degree is still the standard, although a DNP may become increasingly preferred.
OP, if you only have a BS, you will need to do some research on universities in your area that offer ABSN. They will all have their own requirements and cost breakdowns, though, given the competitive environment for nursing, they will all be pretty picky about GPA, past life experience, volunteerism, etc. You especially want to look at the prerequisite requirements for the schools you want to apply to as that will greatly determine whether or not you are qualified.
Best of luck to you!

==============

Thanks for your comments. What is needed is a comprehensive test like the MCAT in medicine. (NCAT) The med schools instituted that simply because GPA's mean almost nothing, due to major differences between institutions and subject matter. A psychology degree from Podunk U. is not the same level of difficulty as a chemistry degree from Harvard. This is not a statement of elitism, just a simple statement of difficulty. Mediocrity pays in the GPA game.

Another issue I ran into is described by this experience. I took an A&P course in a college I won't mention. A good course with real cadavers. So listen to this: My class average was 105. The overall class average was around 50. So the teacher said, "I'm going to let you grade your own tests. Find out what the wrong answers are, and correct them. That will be your grade."

Teachers are under pressure to perform as teachers, and grading on the curve as well as this kind of cheating above cheapens the GPA.

Just an opinion. In sum, I believe the GPA means almost nothing, and probably using it is just a result of likes, ethnic quotas, pet ideas of admission people, etc. f you had 100 applicants previously, and suddenly there are 600, the problem simply becomes, "How are we going to narrow down 600 to 60 admissions?" You can cast about on ways such as picky-GPA, race, gender, life experience. But the idea of an exam, like the civil service in government, is one fair standard that is discriminatory to no one.

biochemist · Oct 1, 2014

If your real interest is nutrition rather than allopathic, "Western" medicine, you may want to go the naturopathic or dietician route (although I'm not sure you need any kind of degree or credential at all to do "nutritional healing"). You're likely to have a hard time finding a job and a collaborating physician who will let you do what you say you want to pursue. There is always the option of locating in a state with independent practice for NPs, and creating your own practice, but I would guess you'll have a hard time getting insurance companies to pay you enough to make a decent living unless you are practicing mainstream medicine. Also, given the views you're voicing here, I predict you're going to be v. unhappy in nursing school, which is organized around and focused on mainstream medicine/nursing.
Also as already noted, most schools are not interested in what you are "capable of" going forward as much as they are in your existing academic track record. Fortunately for you, there are tons of online proprietary NP programs that are little more than diploma mills and will take anyone with a pulse and a checkbook (this is one of the reasons that the markets in many areas are rapidly becoming flooded with NPs).

=================

"Be v. unhappy in nursing school."

Good prediction, but I have developed a trait of "acceptance." However, just in a mechanical sense, you make a very good point. Why should I take the long way around, when a straighter line is always better?

Thanks for your comment. In a broad philosophical sense, I am studying the following question: "If standard institutional medicine is not delivering the goods regarding nutritional healing, then who will?" Various alternative types offering this brand of medicine are backed up 6+ months in appointments, in my observations of a locale I won't identify. So the public is onto it, and the docs aren't, yet.

Some possibles:

1. Docs changing their tune. Jeffrey Bland md is training thousands of docs in "functional medicine."

This involves epigenetics, and is not your father's nutrition.

2. ND's and independent docs going "native."

3. Wellness coaches are booming. They deal with obesity, diet, etc. No credentials in the traditional sense. The training schools claim that docs are hiring them to supplement their practice, but I have not seen that.

4. Traditional registered dietition area.

5. Be a "nutritionist." This also a non-licensed person.

I have not commented on any of these channels. Any opinions welcome.