Relocation to UK

michaelarose · Jul 10, 2008

If you look at job descriptions for the NHS it will state they can not assist with work permit. Here is one that I found and is general for most that I looked at. http://www.jobs.nhs.uk/overseas_cand.html

I noticed that, but what i was stating was that I don't understand why there are so many unemployed nurses in reference to NHS, not in trying to get employ when I made that statement.

PhilGN · Jul 10, 2008

When I saw chocolate poppy's post it made me wonder, is it any easier for non-EU nurses to get jobs outside of England? Like in Scotland, Northern Ireland of Wales? Just wondering if there are any places even in England that are more willing to hire international nurses.

allnurses Guide · Jul 10, 2008

I would like to respond to chocolatepoppy's post, I am not sure when you came to the UK and to Wales but things will most definately have changed.

Michaelarose, just read your thread and just had to respond :) I did relocate to the UK,successfully,easily, and without help of an agency.

How long ago was this????? I will guess that it was over 3 years ago that you moved here, many things have changed and gaining work permits is almost impossible now.

I found a post that appealed to me, and sent my CV and all the required paperwork to them. I then waited to see if I'd be 'shortlisted'. I did make a few phone calls to speak to the Senior Sister regarding interest in the job listing. She was very nice and took time to speak w/ me,answering any question I had. Anyway, I did receive word that she wanted to do a telephone interview and we set up a date/time for this to happen. After that, I waited for I guess around a week when she e-mailed me that the post was being offered to me.

This would not happen now, you would not be shortlisted as your would be considered an international applicant and therefore would fall outside the recruitment criteria. As a manager I would not be allowed to shortlist, or interview you no matter how much I wanted to give you a job.

This NHS Trust applied for and got my work permit sent to me-I didn't have to 'pay' for it. I then went to the nearest international VISA office and applied for my work permit VISA. I made sure I had all the paperwork they specified I needed,and was I glad I followed instructions, as when I got there and was waiting my turn, I could hear staff turning people away who did not follow instructions and had to make another appointment w/ them....my process went smooth as silk. Just like anything else in life, when you are given instructions, PAY attention and DO what you're asked- it works:) I got my work permit VISA stamped on my passport which took about 1-2 wks to receive.

You are not going to get a VISA now, nursing is no longer a listed as a shortage profession therefore unless you are a UK or EU citizen you will not get a work VISA, no trust is goint to apply for a work permit now, because there are so many UK nurses who are unable to find work, why should we go through all of that when there are lots of our own nurses who are willing and able to do the job, we have to look after our own citizens first.

By the way, there are loads of job posts across Wales&England and they specifically state that newly qualified nurses are welcome as well as experienced nurses. Some posts do state that under certain circumstances, they will offer the job to hospital employees first, and if they still don't get any suitable prospects, offer the jobs to outsiders.

Yes there are jobs advertised but there are just as many nurses and more who are applying for them. We cannot give our own students work because there are not enough jobs.

One helpful site is: Cardiff&Vale NHS Trust- check it out. You might try 'NHS Trusts' and investigate for yourself. I wouldn't waste my time w/ an agency, as the Trust has to usually pay the agency a fee., and most NHS Trusts are kinda hurting for funding from time to time.

Cardiff and vale WILL NOT EMPLOY OVERSEAS NURSES they are not allowed because of immigration law, employment law, and recruitment policies.

Now just so you have a bit of background about me and so you can get the idea that I know what I am talking about. I am a nurse manager in Wales and have worked for many hospitals in South Wales in the past, including the trust you mention,. As a manager I am and have been responsible for recruitment. The things that I have highlighted are things that I think have to be clarified and I apologise if I appear negative but I think it is unfair to raise expectations and hopes.

Getting work as a nurse in Wales is very difficult as the rest of the country, as managers we are NOT ALLOWED to even shortlist nurses who are not UK or EU. If we shortlist, then HR will take those applications out. There is no point phoning the ward managers because they have to follow the recruitment policies and they are NOT ALLOWED to consider international nurses.

The trust I work in at the moment which is in Wales has a jobs freeze because some wards are closing and the staff need to be redeployed, so all available jobs have to go to these staff first.

Please do not get your hopes up, if you are not a UK or EU nurse or unless you fall into the senior nurse catagories which would be at mangerial level (Band 7 and above) you are not going to get work in England, Wales or Scotland. I can't comment about Ireland because I have no experience here but I imagine that they are under the same pressures that we are.

I would like to finish with a quick example. The last 2 posts that I advertised and recruited into.

FIRST POST Staff Nurse band 5 surgical ward. I have 30 applications before I closed the advert. 20 from UK nurses, 5 from EU and 5 international.

I shortlisted 10 of the UK nurses and 1 EU nurse.

I didn't even look at the international because HR had removed them before shortlist.

SECOND POST Band 7 Clinical nurse specialist. I had 5 UK nurses, one ANP for the USA and one nurse from India.

As a band 7 I am allowed to look at international nurses if there are no UK nurses that fit the criteria. 3 of the 5 UK nurse did so they were shortlisted, interviewed and I appointed one of them. Therefore I didn't consider the overseas applicants.

Wales and Scotland have to stick to the same employment and immigration laws as England, you will not be able to take shortcuts or get work easily because there are more nurses than jobs throughout the country.

allnurses Guide · Jul 10, 2008

HI Chocolatepoppy,
Thanks for the encouraging reply, after so many negative ones, its nice to read about a pleasant experience. Thanks also for encouraging me to follow my dreams, as there are many quick to tell you why you shouldn't. I also heard from an UK nurse named Marie that explained that with all the red flags to prevent people from overseas to be able to fill nursing positions, they will still consider you. She also suggested going directly to a potential employer, and she also stated that even though there are plenty of nursing positions, the reasons why the NHS keeps saying they don't have money is because the keep hiring management. I'm not sure how true this is, but its not surprising. I receive emails daily from the NHS posting available jobs and there are tons, I just don't understand how there are unemployed nurses in the UK then.
Marie also said that there are plenty of specialties and that if there is one you possessed you will get a once over, she also told me not to buy into all the hype about not being able to find work, she thinks this is in existence to keep potential foreigners at bay, but the down side is the nurses there are overworked. At this point, they don't care where the help is form as long as they get it. Is this true?
I guess I keep getting so many different responses from different people that I have been puzzled exceedingly. How long ago did you go through this process? I know I already too my IELTS and passed, and I will have my BSN by the end of next year. Any other suggestions?

Michaelrose, I am really sorry and I know that many of the responses appear to be negative but I am a recruiter for the NHS and as a senior nurse I am in close communications with the other nurse recruiters in my hospital and region. The "hype" is not to keep potential foreigners at bay it is to keep UK nurses employed first. As I said to chocolatepoppy it is not the nurse managers that stipulate this, it is the HR and employment policies within the hospitals. There is little point contacting wards directly because all recruitment has to go through human resources who will enforce the policies and laws.

Yes there are many jobs advertised in the jobs bulletin but there are still many nurses who are unable to find work because there are not enough jobs for UK nurses. Of course we care where we employ our nurses from, it is not the case of any pair of hands will do we have to give priority to our own nurses first.

All NHS recruitment is done online now and within the shortlisting panel any international applicants are automatically excluded so when I shortlist online I am unable to tick the shortlist box for anyone who is not UK or EU.

I understand that you have been given different information from those that have come to the UK but I wonder how long ago they did that, the reason I ask is because as someone who employs nurses and reguarly goes through the process of shortlisting and interviewing, I don't understand how I would be able to employ anyone who is not UK or EU. THere is no way within the system that we have to recruit that will allow it. It's not a case of I can bend the rules because I want to give you a job, it's I am actually stopped by Human Resources and government from even considering anyone who does not fit the criteria.

Also this is not an individual hospital thing, all NHS hospitals will work under the same guidence and rules. Unlike in the US where hospitals are different employers, the NHS tends to have almost identical policies and procedures for things like recruitment and these are driven by the employment laws set out by government.

LiverpoolJane · Jul 10, 2008

I can only echo Sharries comments.

I am also a manager and currently have several overseas nurses on my ward, two of them have approached me to supply references as they want to relocate to Australia / New Zealand. They are telling me that the immigration rules have changed and they are uncertain about their future in the UK. I didn't realise that these nurses do not come on a green card like a UK nurse would when relocating to the US, rather they are on a work permit and they cannot apply for indefinite leave to remain until they have been here for five years. If they leave the UK for a period of time - for example to return to their home country to have their children - this is added on the the 5 year requirement.

I have shortlisted recently and some of the people I shortlisted were rejected by HR because of work permit issues - and these are nurses already in the UK. I don't know the ins and outs of how it all works but I know that the effect on overseas nurses here now is a feeling of uncertainty.

Some of the applications I have seen are from RNs who are only allowed to work as nursing assistants as they cannot find employment enabling them to go through the required preceptorship and these would be seen as a priority before nurses from overseas.

After saying all that I have been in nursing long enough to have seen there having been changes from one extreme to another - sometime there is a nursing shortage, then there is a surplace.

I find myself in a similar situation with my desire to live and work in the US, I am still going through the process of trying to get a license but I am fully aware that retrogression is in place and as it stands I can expect a lengthy wait. If you are prepared to sit and wait to see if things change in the UK I would say you should go ahead and go through the process to get your US nursing qualification validated in the UK.

Jane

chocolatepoppy · Jul 10, 2008

Michaelarose. Yeah, you're welcome. I simply wish to encourage you and help direct you in your quest, by sharing my experience. I think Silverdragon has been trying to be as straightforward as possible w/you in your ambitions to relocate to the UK.I also happen to believe I've 'ruffled some feathers' as I am 'a Yankee', telling you something much different to what she's told you. That's okay, as all I know is MY experience, and I did everything above board and legal-no shortcuts. There ARE NONE. I have a UKnurse friend who had been w/and ageny who hired nurses outside the UK, give me good,sound advice as how to proceed. She was nothing but helpful to me. She never tried to discourage me. She was upfront and honest about things. By the way, she was the one who suggested I proceed on my own & how agency nurse recruitment works.(she left the agency as a recruiter to work in a hospital when I was being hired) What I told you about my experience from start to finish, was exactly how it happened. No false hopes, no glossy finish. I spent SO many hours of my own time gathering all the necessary paperwork, having these things notorized, undergoing a complete physical-my expense, not to mention the money I paid for fees, airline tickets to get some of this done. It took me the better part of the year to obtain a job, but I did it. I did it all fair and square AND legal-that's the ONLY way I operate. I only left last year. Yeah, they've had hiring freezes going off and on during the years I was there. Our hospital never seemed to be phased by it too much. There are smaller hospitals in Southeast Wales that either have or are talking about shutting down for different reasons. Ours is the largest hospital in southeast Wales, and served the whole of South Wales. It also is a teaching hospital. (man, the learning opportunities I got were endless!!) I was assured I would be welcomed back on as an employee -any time- as I left under very good standing. Common sense says, that there has to be an opening of course! They won't 'make a place for me.' And they weren't implying they would. I didn't have to start out as a nursing assistant either, I was hired as an RN. I did not have to do any 'preceptorship' or'course work' either. I was ready to go. There were nurses from the Philippines, and India, and Africa who did have to go through that process before being on their own. The American Standard of Nursing Schools is one of the highest standards and we are well-known for being well-trained when we graduate. We are able to 'hit the dirt running' as we say- and we are qualified to work in ANY department we choose, and we are free to choose to change departments and receive on-the-job training to facilitate that. Those of us courageous enough to have experience in many different departments are in demand (in the US that is)as we are considered versatile& valuable. My experience w/ that in the UK is that they don't appreciate that as we do here. They require you to take endless 'courses' in this and that to 'prove' you qualify to work in a different department...Silly.(Was our nurses training all in vain-we already PROVED we could perform by graduation time and passing the state boards' NCLEX!!!) I did find some things very frustrating about their way of doing nursing, such as I was informed at this facility, only senior nurses or the residents, or(and get a load of this)NURSE AIDES could be allowed to start IV's,draw blood, and the likes!? I would have to take a 'course' on how to start IV's, or put foley catheters in, or drop NG tubes, or do trach. care, or do NP suctioning. They also don't recognize ACLS credentialling, so my ACLS certification had to expire....I had literally years more experience at doing ALL of this(we learned and applied these skills as beginning students for crying out loud...) AND more, than most of the senior nurses, and one of the ward sisters, but since I was on their turff, had to do it their way. The sister who hired me knew all about my experience as a nurse, and how long I had been an RN. It just didn't matter. Stuff like that was difficult to do,but I did it, and did my job well! It was NOT personal, it is just the way nursing is carried out in the UK-at my hospital anyhow. Equally, it would be a shock in lots of ways to a UK nurse to come here and do the reverse of what I did. I promise you michaelarose, if you are sincere in your quest to relocate, take all the information we've all given to you, and RUN with it!!! Don't stop til YOU have reached your goal! NO ONE limits me - I and I alone have that priviledge. So do you. Maybe the time frame will be different for you in achieving your goal, but if this is truly what you want -DO IT! I simply can't be bothered by negativity. I take ALL counsel given to me seriously, and not personal. I weigh everything, then I press on toward MY goal. Life in the UK was so amazing. The people I lived around were mostly Welsh and were AWESOME!! :yeah: Feel free to keep in touch.

Iechydda (best wishes)

chocolatepoppy · Jul 10, 2008

Silverdragon, I want to say thank you for being upfront w/ michaelarose. Some of my US friends thought it'd be some easy-peasy process getting a job in the UK...WRONG!

I'd like to make myself crystal clear in the fact that I speak for no one but myself regarding my gaining employment as a nurse in your amazing country :) I did everything above board, legal-no shortcuts as there are none. My account happened just as I said it did,step by step. Yes, it involved time and money, but I would do it again today as I am so much richer for having pursued my dream. Here in the US, you would be hired easily,as long as you meet the criteria for doing so, and NO ONE would discourage you -heck, we'd be so happy to have you!! I work in a large hospital in the US -equal to the size hospital I worked in in Wales. I've only been back a year. I never pretended to be an 'official' on how work visas/permits/hiring practices are carried out in the UK. I only speak for myself and my experience.

kind regards,

chocolatepoppy

allnurses Guide · Jul 10, 2008

Shw mae (hello) chocolatepoppy , it is fantastic that you had such a great experience in the UK and in particular in Wales (as a Welsh lass it's fantastic to hear someone talking so enthusiastically about my country)

I think that what SD, Liverpool Jane and myself have been quite keen to point out is that as employers the NHS are no longer allowed to offer jobs to overseas nurses, it's not that we don't want to it's that we are stopped by immigration law.

I think things were a little different at the time you came here, there were less restrictions and the recruitment policies were a little more flexible.

We are all hoping that the job situation improves for the sake of our own nurses and to be able to get the diversity of overseas nurses as well.

What is interesting is that I think I worked within the same trust as you at the same time teaching emergency care and resuscitation so it is quite likely that our paths have crossed.

Very small world :coollook:

suzanne4, RN · Jul 10, 2008

The only things that we are trying to point out is what is happening now if someone is just starting the process. If one did it three years ago, or even two, things were very different.

And the US has been under a retrogression since October, 2006; so there are no visas to work in the US either at this time. And that is why you see so many threads being posted here about this as well.

What was going on in the world even a year ago is vastly different now.

And 17 years of experience is much different than someone that is just finishing or has only a year or two.

But right now, the NHS has a hiring freeze in place and as the others have mentioned above, there is no way around it.

Silverdragon102, BSN · Jul 10, 2008

Silverdragon, I want to say thank you for being upfront w/ michaelarose. Some of my US friends thought it'd be some easy-peasy process getting a job in the UK...WRONG!
I'd like to make myself crystal clear in the fact that I speak for no one but myself regarding my gaining employment as a nurse in your amazing country :) I did everything above board, legal-no shortcuts as there are none. My account happened just as I said it did,step by step. Yes, it involved time and money, but I would do it again today as I am so much richer for having pursued my dream. Here in the US, you would be hired easily,as long as you meet the criteria for doing so, and NO ONE would discourage you -heck, we'd be so happy to have you!! I work in a large hospital in the US -equal to the size hospital I worked in in Wales. I've only been back a year. I never pretended to be an 'official' on how work visas/permits/hiring practices are carried out in the UK. I only speak for myself and my experience.
kind regards,
chocolatepoppy

I am really glad you had a great experience, unfortunately things do change and immigration is one of them. I have been waiting for a long time to move to the US and retrogression affected my process, DH was lucky to be offered the chance to work in Canada and to be honest it has worked out better than expected. The same is happening in the US as in the UK jobs are being encouraged to go to the citizens first, which is how it should be, but what affects the UK is the EU and what they set out which currently makes it harder from someone outside the EU to get work unless they are in a highly specialised area and the job is on the shortage list. I just want people to understand it isn't easy any more to get a work permit for the UK or even the EU

RGN1 · Jul 10, 2008

Can I also point out that this hiring freeze is fairly recent & it may be that the successful poster got in before the changes to schedule "A" jobs?

Also I think you should remember that no matter what you have passed in your own country you need to satisfy the demands of where you're going. I'm a qualified nurse with 12 years experience but I still had to take N-CLEX & prove my credentials to the USA & now I have to do it all again for Canada - & I wouldn't expect anything else.

Don't believe it's easy to get to the USA either because right now there are no visas what-so-ever. I have a job at a busy US hospital & I can't get to it & am now going to ply my skills in canada where they do want me!

I do second what you say about persuing your dreams etc but you must take a healthy dose of reality with it too. Things will change I'm sure, there are areas where there's a skill shortage & other parts of what I'll loosely term the the British Isles for ease have different recruiting policies too - you can try Scotland, Ireland, the Isle of Mann, Jersey, Guernsey to name a few. They are essentially European, English speaking places in this neck of the woods. Most are covered by the NMC, I believe, but not all by European recruiting rules.

chocolatepoppy · Jul 10, 2008

bore da, (good morning) sharrie, yeah thanks for acknowledging my post, and your honesty . really glad to hear you're a welsh lass! i was just learning welsh when i had to leave due to family illness...i have slacked off my learning, but am slowly getting back into it. the welsh language is simply one of the most beautiful i have ever heard. (i am a fair spanish-speaker having grown up in the southwest of us&picked it up in gradeschool & from my dad who speaks fluently; and fair at german, and hebrew). i hope that the welsh language continues to be promoted and taught as compulsory in primary schools across wales! seems there is a big debate as to its being necessary? it's the national language of wales for crying out loud -it'd be a shame to see it die out. i am proudly of welsh decent - my dad's family came out of the southeast wales region round the turn of the century - cymru ambyd!! (wales forever) anyhow, thanks for the reply.

diolch yn fawr,(thankyou very much)

chocolatepoppy

:cheers:

"....success is the best revenge..."