NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees

[Brian]

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse.

New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN certification-a step that critics worry could serve as a body blow to a profession already facing a severe shortage.

Under the state Board of Nursing proposal, RNs with associate's degrees would have to earn bachelor's degrees within 10 years, or their RN certifications would be downgraded to that of licensed practical nurse. That would make nursing somewhat like teaching in New York state; certified K-12 teachers need master's degrees or must obtain one within three years of starting a job. It would also add years and thousands of dollars to the difficulty of becoming an RN...

Full Article: http://www.rochesterdandc.com/news/0413BA3TIOG_news.shtml

[scrubsnhugsRN]

I am really frustrated at the notion that all ADN programs are the same. Let me tell you my program required us to have Bachleor level math, chemistry, english to obtain my AAS. I see other programs that dont even require college level math or english. Furthermore we had classes on Leadership/management. I realize that I would, of course, need more classes in this subject as a BSN but believe me it would not be that much more. I did three years to aquire my AAS. and BSN is a four year degree. In my program first year was LPN(two semesters) and second year(two semesters) was RN. I did clinicals regarding public health nursing...so dont assume that since I have a lowly AAS degree that I am an idiot.

I have the same responsibilties on the floor as a BSN does, and there is no difference in pay where I work. The only difference is that they can go into managment and I have no dreams for management, I'd rather do patient care..

Not all ADN, AAS degrees are equal.

[marilynmom, LPN, NP]

It may be a pet peeve of yours, but by and large the criticism is from the BSN side against the ADN side, not the other way around. I'd be hard-pressed to find any ADNs who criticise those who have the ability and desire to continue on and get a higher degree. But I do get my own hackles up when a BSN student or graduate starts poo-pooing those of us who (for whatever reason) are ADN degreed only.

Many of us have our own reasons for the ADN level -not the least of which is we didn't have someone else to pay the bill, or provide us with room and board, or perhaps there weren't any openings. For my part, I went back to school to become an RN a bit later in life (I was older than some of my teachers, and only one other student was older than me) -I needed a program that would allow me to work full-time (which meant a night-program with weekend-only clinicals. They were very long clinicals, but we were able to get our hours in) Lets not even go on about the regular needs and responsibilities of having to make house payments and other everyday needs.

The resentment the ADNs feel should be understandable -by their very criticism and desire to make it mandatory that EVERYONE hold a 4 yr degree just to do nursing, would certainly cut down on the number of people who COULD meet such requirements -and for WHAT? So they can all become better future managers? You certainly do not need to understand the 'politics' of the profession, or understand how to start your own business, etc etc. just to do good bedside care. Many have absolutely NO desire to become managers or start their own businesses. I personally have no interest in getting involved in office politics. I've played that game, and quite honestly I'm quite sick of it. By making the cry that BSN should be mandatory minimum for someone to be a nurse, you belittle those of us who are NOT BSNs, but ARE RNs (or LPNs or whatever). Listen to yourself. Is it so hard to understand why we may lash back?

Hey, go ahead, get your wish and make it mandatory for RNs to be BSN. You won't raise your level of pay -the public out there (including that naive dimwit mentioned earlier who thinks Nursing should be a $12/hr job) isn't going to show any deference to your 'better' degree. As far as THEY will be concerned, you will STILL be an 'overpaid buttwipe', since that is the way dimwits like that view nurses. Having the BSN behind your name won't mean diddly to him or others like him. And management (corporate) will only see the need for nurses to fill the spots, and the bottom-line pay is X dollars an hour -congrats on your BSN, but youre still a bedside nurse and this is what THAT pays -period.

If you HONESTLY think I've got the wrong picture, then more power to you because you won't see it the way I'm telling it until you've lived the adventure for yourself. I've worked for large companies (the biggest being monsantos) and I've worked for counties -which act a lot like large companies and vice versa. I've been on the hire/fire side, and I've BEEN hired and fired.

You were able to go to a four-year college and get the bigger degree. Good for you. Its the height of arrogance to THEN decide that everyone else should do so as well -as a minimum. THIS is the attitude displayed by many of the BSN students and degreed in this "debate". ADNs have no particular reason to try to degrade the BSNs, but it seems many BSNs feel the need to do so to the ADNs.

-

then people wonder where the animosity between the nurses comes from.

Hey I agree with you and we have a lot in common (kids, house, car payments, etc).

I think maybe you misunderstood me. I was referring to some of the earlier posts about the whole BSN get no clinical time...that is all I was referring to!! My post really had nothing to do with the BSN as minimum. I really could care less...LOL.

I also would have been happy as hell to have been accepted into any nursing program! I am VERY blessed to be in the program I am in, I have many friends who have been applying for years and still get rejection letters. When I read the paper and it said that over 40,000 qualified applicans were turned away from nursing school last year I felt so blessed to be where I am right now.

I don't believe that either program prepares you better for real world nursing either.

[marilynmom, LPN, NP]

Allright, I'm gonna try this again and hope the computer keeps me logged in long enough to take it.

I have been of the opinion that the diploma nurses had the best entry to practice, due to the high amount of clinical experience, longer rotations in multiple hospital areas, etc. along with the three years of school. And because they had a hospital backing instead of a college or university partnership and course catalog, the graduates of those schools have gotten the short end of the stick; great education and no degree to show for it. At least us ADN's can bridge to a BSN if we can pay for it; most universities don't accept squat from a diploma program for credit.

Which brings up my next point. Nursing is a unique profession. I feel free to call it a profession simply because it is unique. It isn't a lot of things, but a lot of other jobs have elements present in nursing. It is the only job in the medical field that requires personnel 24/7, 365 days a year. Not even MD's are required to monitor a patient so thoroughly, and be responsible for every single little picky thing concerning that patient. They will eventually leave the surgical suite, PT only sees 'em for thirty minutes a day, pharmacy has to send the right meds for sure, management needs to make sure we get paid and scheduled, etc. However, the bedside nurse is responsible for the rest of it.

So. We're unique. Why don't universities take our uniqueness into consideration when deciding what counts as credit? Experience should count, certifications should count. Period. We should be recognized and respected for doing the dirtiest of jobs and doubly so if we want a degree in doing this dirty, wonderful, demanding job.

Good points. Especially about the diploma based nursing programs. It is a shame, but I wouldn't even consider a diploma nursing program because in the end they don't get jack crap for their diploma! I would have to go back to school to do the same thing over again just for the degree if I wanted to go beyond the BSN (APN, etc). That is sad, but true.

I think experience should count, absolutly. That is why I would never agree that if the BSN becomes standard, that ADNs should have to go back and get their BSN, it should be grandfathered in to them.

[Gromit]

Hey I agree with you and we have a lot in common (kids, house, car payments, etc).

I think maybe you misunderstood me. I was referring to some of the earlier posts about the whole BSN get no clinical time...that is all I was referring to!! My post really had nothing to do with the BSN as minimum. I really could care less...LOL.

I also would have been happy as hell to have been accepted into any nursing program! I am VERY blessed to be in the program I am in, I have many friends who have been applying for years and still get rejection letters. When I read the paper and it said that over 40,000 qualified applicans were turned away from nursing school last year I felt so blessed to be where I am right now.

I don't believe that either program prepares you better for real world nursing either.

In that case, You're right, I misunderstood you. I know what you mean about feeling blessed or lucky that you got in -I was rejected the first time, but accepted the second time -the first time was on a technicality (so I was told), and the second time, I was initially going to be rejected (the college has no 'official' waiting list, but.... ) and then they added the first-ever night program (for that CC) and I was offered a spot -which I jumped at.

They didn't have a very high rejection level at the time -nothing like today -they could book ahead by over two YEARS and not manage to take all the applicants.

A lot of folks want in -and looking around, a fair amount want out (grin -I'm stayin' ) and the 'boomer' generation is knocking on 'old fart-knocker' doors, getting ready to become a further strain on an already strained system.

So that being the case, I'm not concerned in the slightest. Our 'value' is going to go UP, not down. All the doctors in the world cannot replace us, and most folks would lose their lunch if they had to deal with much of what we deal with, so we will be in ever greater need.

I've had jobs where I had to work other jobs outside of the field I was trained in, because there were no openings anywhere (when I was a paramedic/firefighter, I actually worked for a large construction company as a safety coordinator -nightshift- while I put in applications up to 100 miles away from where I lived. For jobs that only paid $21k/yr to start! There were (and still are) far too many of us qualified medics, and no openings. I must say, its gratifying being in a field where you are actually in demand.

Last but not least (by far) -I couldn't possibly agree more about the statement that none of 'em can prepare you for the 'real' world. I still remember the butterflies I had while I was so proud of my newly minted license number, but also nervous because now it was 'for real'.

My biggest fear back when I was a medic is still the same fear I live with today as an RN: Medication errors. I've always been mortified at the thought of giving the wrong med, or wrong does, or (Heaven forbid) putting an incompatible IV with another.

SO FAR, that fear has always been my ally. I re-check and check once more.

One of the nurses on our floor DID screw one up (wrong insulin) and you could feel the tension on the floor until the end of the shift. I'll give ANYTHING to never be in that position.

[pkapple]

My concern is the statement that any RN who does not have a BSN within 10 years of this passing will be reduced to an LPN. Here comes trouble...Suddenly the education and experience obtained reverts from a college level to Vocational level-yet one would still hold an associates degree, so we could have yet another level of LPN-its confusing enough figuring out which LPN can hang piggybacks or start an IV and which can actually push Iv meds-from the list of approved meds.....

Now if a hospital wanted an all BSN staff that would be their right, but I am sure NJ, MA, VT, OH and PA would benefit from the border town nurses as would many travel nurse agencies!!!

Many hospitals that offer tuition help to staff limit how much they pay each semester--can you imagine the budget cries--say 200 nurses above the usual numbers suddenly want 1000.00 tuition assist for the next 5 or more semesters, not to mention some flexibility in schedules to attend required clinical obligations---what a nightmare1

Come on New York-grandfather the ADN's currently holding a NY license, require BSN for verification/reprocity

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

My concern is the statement that any RN who does not have a BSN within 10 years of this passing will be reduced to an LPN. Here comes trouble...Suddenly the education and experience obtained reverts from a college level to Vocational level-yet one would still hold an associates degree, so we could have yet another level of LPN-its confusing enough figuring out which LPN can hang piggybacks or start an IV and which can actually push Iv meds-from the list of approved meds.....

Now if a hospital wanted an all BSN staff that would be their right, but I am sure NJ, MA, VT, OH and PA would benefit from the border town nurses as would many travel nurse agencies!!!

Many hospitals that offer tuition help to staff limit how much they pay each semester--can you imagine the budget cries--say 200 nurses above the usual numbers suddenly want 1000.00 tuition assist for the next 5 or more semesters, not to mention some flexibility in schedules to attend required clinical obligations---what a nightmare1

Come on New York-grandfather the ADN's currently holding a NY license, require BSN for verification/reprocity

The NY plan, which was tabled without a vote and is therefore no longer pending legislation, would have grandfathered all existing ADNs. It would have required the 10yr conversion only for RNs that graduated after passage.

The concept is moot though because the proposed legislation is dead.

~faith,

Timothy.

[wincha]

I have been a RN for over 20 years and first recieved a BA double major. There is no way I would ever go back to get my BSN. I would get my masters in another field.

[Gromit]

I'm glad it fell through though. It would have opened up a nasty can of worms.

I do intend to get my Bachelors, but on my OWN timetable, not someone elses. It just strikes me as silly though, for a state to try to demand more when a shortage exists -and no doubt they expected the BSN to make the same pay as when they didn't require the 4yr degree. That would be the insult to the injury.

I know my statement makes it should like this is only a money issue, but for cryin' out loud, this isn't a hobby, its how we make our LIVING. When cities expect more out of their own employees, they increase their pay grade. For Nurses, they just expect us to take it and keep quiet, I guess.

[bkaymsn]

Nursing has proven in the past to be it's own worst enemy. Can you imagine what could be accomplished if all levels of nurses joined hands and hearts to serve not only the Science of Nursing but the Art of Nursing. Over the past 3o years I have practiced nursing at all levels. I became an LVN at 19,then an ADN fourteen years later ,followed by BSN and now a MSN. I plan on starting a PHD program in the next couple of months. My hope is that some how we as nurses can join together and become a postive force for our profession.

[burn out]

omg ... it's that old dead horse again... are we coding it this time? How many years are we going to beat this issue and still nothing changes. Until the entry level into nursing is deceided by nurses and not politicians and hospitals and insurance companies nothing is going to change, and since that is never going to happen let us just learn to accept the things we can not change and stop the code ...let the poor horse die.

[Gromit]

No, sorry, but this thread started because of what a state was attempting to do. While I don't presume to speak for you, I have NEVER been one to just sit quietly and let others (especially those who have no or very little concept of the profession I'm a part of) blindly dictate what will happen. No, I've never been able to keep too quiet about that. If in favor, I cheer. If not, I jeer. But regardles, my voice is heard. I see many others are just like me -not content to just lie down and keep quiet.

[bkaymsn]

I am new to this site but I really enjoy seeing Nurses at least dare to express an opion. Oklahoma has such a shortage that it isnot even a possibility.I still think that Nurses have the ability to determine the future of nursing however their is power in numbers and when divided it is lost.