NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

Published

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse.

New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN certification-a step that critics worry could serve as a body blow to a profession already facing a severe shortage.

Under the state Board of Nursing proposal, RNs with associate's degrees would have to earn bachelor's degrees within 10 years, or their RN certifications would be downgraded to that of licensed practical nurse. That would make nursing somewhat like teaching in New York state; certified K-12 teachers need master's degrees or must obtain one within three years of starting a job. It would also add years and thousands of dollars to the difficulty of becoming an RN...

Full Article: http://www.rochesterdandc.com/news/0413BA3TIOG_news.shtml

Well, being a 2 year RN from NYS who is currently working on a BSN degree, I really don't understand why the state would be requiring this. We come out of both programs and still have to start from the bottom up, because with either a 2 year degree or a 4 year degree, you still have no clinical experience. The only reason I am going back for my BSN, is that I would like to do more management type work, and most employers require that you have a BSN. I am proud of my 2 year degree and I have learned a lot in that program. But, life actually makes it hard to go back and get that BSN. I work full time, have a young daughter and I am a single mother. You know, it's all good that employers reimburse you or help with tuition towards furthering your education. My problem is, my employer doesn't give me the time I need to take classes. I go to 2 classes a night, well after work ends, but being a homecare nurse, it doesn't seem as though my day ends. Being on-call for a week at a time, working weekends, and patients that call after hours, not to mention endless loads of paperwork, because I can't finish it in my 8 hour day, because we see more patients than we can handle. I would really like to see how this one plays out in NY because it will affect me personally.

Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
I agree which is why i posted to this originally. like I said we all take the same boards. WE DO need to work together. As far as the BSN choice. There are differences like extended programs in transcultural nursing which in this state is NOT a waste considering the diversity of cultures and the cultural sensitivity required to treat patients with different belief systems. There is also an extensive gerontology program which considering the aging population is essential for the aging baby boomers. And Clinical hours that go with them. I don't know what BSN program the person's friend goes to who posted that " the BS in BSN means BS". Anyway, apparently not all BSN programs are the same and I think that more experience, and by that I mean not just "useless book-learning" in areas of therapeutic communication, sensitivity and knowing how to relate to patients from different cultures( 90 clinical hours there alone )including trips to Indian reservations to provide care ( one example), as well the the gerontology we got have made me a better nurse.You get out of the programs what you put in. I for one don't have "more money and time to waste". I worked as an ER tech and got student loans and grants and scholarships. It wasn't a pleasure cruise! What i did get was a heck of a good education..... .SO ...Can't we all just get along. :yeahthat: :flowersfo

You've made excellent points. When you're not well educated, you "don't know what you don't know." We spend more time checking out a piano teacher's credentials than those of the person who is taking care of our critically ill children. Nursing will always be cheap to hospital administrators until we have nurses with at least as much education as a teacher. What's the rub? With the proposed law in New York, the ADN is still a way into nursing for most people (and hence more opportunities for minorities) but you have 10 WHOLE MORE YEARS to earn a measly 30 credits. We need more people in nursing who don't gripe about having to get more education!

Specializes in CCU, Trauma and forensic, Home Hospice C.

thank you! Sometimes when the future comes knocking it's not an easy thing.I am told that a similar law proposed here in Hawaii split the Hawaii Nurses Association apart. It is unfortunate because it causes us to fight amongst each other when we should be fighting for better pay, hours, and safe, workable, nurse to patient ratios.

Aloha! :) :wink2:

Several points:

- Hillary to be president? - It is hardly likely to happen. And that comes from this nurse that cannot stand King George Bush.

- Are Nurses seen as appendages of MDs? Not hardly likely. Nurses consistantly are rated much higher on honesty polls than MDs, which demonstrate clearly that the Public views as clearly separate from MDs, and actually somewhat better in some important aspects of caring for them. The vast majority of my patients believe what I say and have greater respect for me than the MD.

I have found that the only people that really view us as handmaidens, are the older MDs themselves, some Administrators/PR people, some older nurses and the elderly.

Some of us are seen as professional because we act and work like professionals, and that comes across whether we have special initials on our nametags or not.

- We are doing 80% of what MDs do? I don't know what MDs you work for, but MDs, much like RNs, are responsible for substantially more than they appear to be doing. As RNs, we have LPNs/MAs/UAPs sayin that they can easily do our job, that they do X% of our jobs, when we know that there is much more to what we do. It is the same sort of arrogancy to say that RNs are doing 80% of what MDs, and ignores the many things that they do.

- Bachelor's degrees and Master's degree do not mean that we will be paid more as a group, or that it will garner us respect. Ask English/PR/Journalism/Education majors what they get paid, how many hours that they put in and how they are treated compared to nurses. I make more and have more job security than the vast majority of MA/BAs of my acquaintance, work few hours, and don't have to wear heels, or dry clean only clothing. There are English majors, working at Starbuck's or Barnes & Nobles. Teachers, in particular are treated badly, paid poorly, and put in a great deal extra time.

Then how do you account for the fact that Physical Therapist, Occupational Therapists, Pharmacists, etc., have always make more money than RNs? They have always made higher salaries than RNs, and their salaries have risen expontentially as they have increased their entry into practice.

Twenty years ago, their National Organizations decided to increase their educational preparation. They did that solely to increase their worth in the workplace, (when DRGs became the norm for hospital reinbursement), and prevent themselves from being replaced by lesser skilled individuals. It is harder to validate (convince the public) replacing someone with a Masters Degree, or higher, with a HS dropout, than someone who, from the get go, only has one or two years of post HS education. Don't forget, these careers ALWAYS had a Bachelors degree as entry into practice to start.

They hold onto their professional practice like glue. The PTs are very selective about who and what they delegate their practice skills to. The higher education levels keep the program application and completion numbers low. The hospitals have to wait 8 years for the next class of PTs or pharmicists to graduate. And with a limited group of lesser skilled practitioners to choose from, and allowed to delegate thing to, it is a given that the hospitals have to wait, and work harder to hold onto the grads that they have.

That is what nurses should be working to emulate. But the overwhelming numbers of nurses who continue to demand, what they feel is their God Given right to remain the least educated of the health care professional, prevent nursing from taking their place in the workplace next to the others.

I realize that there are a number of nurses who have come into nursing as a second career, and have already gone through school to learn a first career. But that is the price you pay to learn a second career, and is really not our problem. Law is a common second career choice for many individuals. Many business people go into law, as do an increaing number of nurses and doctors. Do doctors ask to go through an abbreviated law school course, because they have already attended medical school for four years? No, they go through the entire three years of law school. So why should someone who already has a career that they earned a Bachelors degree in feel that should not have to earn a Bachelors Degree in Nursing? They even have accelerated programs to accomodate these individuals. Why is nursing the welfare of women's/second careers?

It comes down to that there is really no good reason not to increase the education levels of nursing, only a plethora of excuses and sob stories. Until it changes, we will continue to remain powerless, at the bottom of the food chain.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

Specializes in CCU, Trauma and forensic, Home Hospice C.

I really wish yoiu would look at more than one programs srtucture.Lacking in clinicals is not a fact. our program is heavily based on clinicals.As i said before there is one class in management the rest are clinical rotations or research. Not all BSN programs are the same .

Specializes in CCU, Trauma and forensic, Home Hospice C.
Then how do you account for the fact that Physical Therapist, Occupational Therapists, Pharmacists, etc., have always make more money than RNs? They have always made higher salaries than RNs, and their salaries have risen expontentially as they have increased their entry into practice.

Twenty years ago, their National Organizations decided to increase their educational preparation. They did that solely to increase their worth in the workplace, (when DRGs became the norm for hospital reinbursement), and prevent themselves from being replaced by lesser skilled individuals. It is harder to validate (convince the public) replacing someone with a Masters Degree, or higher, with a HS dropout, than someone who, from the get go, only has one or two years of post HS education. Don't forget, these careers ALWAYS had a Bachelors degree as entry into practice to start.

They hold onto their professional practice like glue. The PTs are very selective about who and what they delegate their practice skills to. The higher education levels keep the program application and completion numbers low. The hospitals have to wait 8 years for the next class of PTs or pharmicists to graduate. And with a limited group of lesser skilled practitioners to choose from, and allowed to delegate thing to, it is a given that the hospitals have to wait, and work harder to hold onto the grads that they have.

That is what nurses should be working to emulate. But the overwhelming numbers of nurses who continue to demand, what they feel is their God Given right to remain the least educated of the health care professional, prevent nursing from taking their place in the workplace next to the others.

I realize that there are a number of nurses who have come into nursing as a second career, and have already gone through school to learn a first career. But that is the price you pay to learn a second career, and is really not our problem. Law is a common second career choice for many individuals. Many business people go into law, as do an increaing number of nurses and doctors. Do doctors ask to go through an abbreviated law school course, because they have already attended medical school for four years? No, they go through the entire three years of law school. So why should someone who already has a career that they earned a Bachelors degree in feel that should not have to earn a Bachelors Degree in Nursing? They even have accelerated programs to accomodate these individuals. Why is nursing the welfare of women's/second careers?

It comes down to that there is really no good reason not to increase the education levels of nursing, only a plethora of excuses and sob stories. Until it changes, we will continue to remain powerless, at the bottom of the food chain.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

you are so right.Great points.Instead of dissing more education we should be embracing it.Our profession is one of lifelong learning and some of these so called "BS book learnin'" is not a waste.The more educated you are,the more in sync with the Dungan Dynamics which fosus on body,mind, and spirit. the better the care we can provide. :yeahthat: :bow:

WOOOOOHOOOOOOO for New York!!!!!!!!

Considering most things start in NY....let's hope this is the latest craze to take off around the nation!

:nurse: B.S.N or Bust!!!!!

There are alot on here talking about how the other professions require a BS for entry level. OK Fine there but look at how many hands on hours these ppl put in with the patients. Nurses are there round the clock doing more hands on care. PT OT the doctors they come in do their thing then go on to the next and come back the next day (maybe) With that said you need more nurses than you need these ppl. Every nursing school in the state of North Carlolina has a waiting list a mile long so if entry level was changed to BSN and in order to practice as a RN you had to go back to get it the average nurse here and in probably about every state in the US would be what? taking care of 40 patients a shift? maybe more? I graduated from a ADN program that ranked in the top five in the state of ALL nursing schools. Also factor in the cost of healthcare already. Do any of you honestly believe that anyone will go for their BSN and pay that kind of money for it so they can work at the average pay scale in place today? It's not about which nurse is better the adn or the bsn. In the end they are the same both are nurses that has the same job to do and that is to take care of people.

Specializes in Med/Surg, PACU, ICU, CCU,ED,ENDO.

Hey no problem. I'll gladly put my 27 years of expertise on the back burner and go back to school and get more edumacation. While, The patients suffer at the hands of nubee nurse with advanced degrees. They still don't get it: nursing is 1st and foremost a hands on skills profession. Pt care requires the touching of patients, and gets better as your comfort levels and experience increase.

Geezeus, just what are they smokeing up in Albany

Paul

Hey no problem. I'll gladly put my 27 years of expertise on the back burner and go back to school and get more edumacation. While, The patients suffer at the hands of nubee nurse with advanced degrees. They still don't get it: nursing is 1st and foremost a hands on skills profession. Pt care requires the touching of patients, and gets better as your comfort levels and experience increase.

Geezeus, just what are they smokeing up in Albany

Paul

I

Hey no problem. I'll gladly put my 27 years of expertise on the back burner and go back to school and get more edumacation. While, The patients suffer at the hands of nubee nurse with advanced degrees. They still don't get it: nursing is 1st and foremost a hands on skills profession. Pt care requires the touching of patients, and gets better as your comfort levels and experience increase.

Geezeus, just what are they smokeing up in Albany

Paul

You still have to have the knowledge of where you need to be putting your hands and what to do with them once you put them somewhere and you better be prepared both professionally and legally if you put them in the wrong place--you must have a solid foundation based in knowledge before

you put your hands anywhere. Do you put something together before you read the instructions?

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

We get that needed knowledge base in ADN programs, as well as BSN ones. I am constantly taken aback at the beliefs held out there by some of you that ADN nurses lack the ability to think critically or perform as well as professional nurses--- as BSN nurses can and do.

The BSN is definately a great step up and I believe, can be desireable in professional nursing. ( to my thinking so should alternate baccalaureate and master's degrees, however, in related/similar fields/disciplines, like psychology or the like).

But don't slight the ADN education base----truly it enough to know what we need "to get our hands in there and work". I just wish we could stop this BSN versus ADN thing already.

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