we often see threads with the title "fired for no reason," or "new grad harassed and fired" or something to that effect. and i always feel at least a little sympathy for the individual involved, if only because i can clearly see by reading between the lines of their self-justifying post that there was a reason for their termination, even if they just don't get it. (there are always a few posts every year from a new grad who is convinced that the reason she's not getting along with her co-workers is that she's just so beautiful they're all jealous, that crowds of mean people are following her around, that she's so wonderful she's going to rock the er or icu or nicu or or and no one sees her wonderfulness clearly, or that some mean, tired, old nurse who ought to retire and get out of the way is targeting her for no good reason.)
i worked with a new grad who was recently terminated for, as she puts it, totally bogus reasons. evidently seeing mine as a sympathetic ear, she went on and on and on about how unfair it was that management expected her to get her act together and actually understand what was going on with her patients. "i've got the time management thing down pat," she said. "i don't know what else they want. they're just picking on me for no good reason." i liked sal, i really did. she was interesting and entertaining and really, really nice. she was also smart, hard-working (when she was at work) and well-educated. but she didn't study outside of work, and really didn't understand what was going on with her patients. i participated in several meetings with her in which it was pointed out that it's not enough to do the tasks, you have to understand why you're doing them. it's not enough to draw the labs. you have to understand what the results mean and then address them. for instance, if the inr is 9, it might explain the nosebleed, the cherry red urine and the fact that the hemoglobin is now 6. giving the coumadin at 6pm as scheduled is not a good thing, even if you gave it right on time and were able to explain to the patient that "it's a blood thinner." i could go on and on.
i got a call from sal today, complaining that she knows she's blackballed for no good reason because she just can't get another job. she wanted me to give her a reference. did she just not get it?
all you new grads out there who are convinced that you're being picked on for no reason, that your more experienced colleagues are just out to get you, and that you're being unfairly targeting, harassed, or picked on, hear this: it may be something you're doing (or not doing) and all those "mean people" are trying to explain it to you so you catch on, learn your job and succeed. we all tried over and over with sal, and she still doesn't get it. are you guilty of the same thing? if your preceptor says you lack critical thinking skills, do you take it to heart, think about it and learn from it? or are you convinced that the entire issue is that she's jealous of your extreme good looks? if your charge nurse charges you with a deficit in your time management skills do you spend time figuring out where you could speed things up a bit? or do you dismiss her as a tired old dog who can't learn a new trick and ought to retire anyway? are you taking to heart and benefitting from any negative feedback you're getting, however poorly given it is? or are you obsessing about how "mean" that nurse was to you and totally overlooking the message?
i wish sal would have "gotten it." she would have been delightful to work with if she had. but right now she's focused on badmouthing her preceptors and the charge nurse, and she still doesn't understand what she did wrong. don't make the same mistakes.
After reading most of these posts it is obvious that there are different perspectives. I find it interesting that compassion is a 'requirement' for being a good nurse, but I have trouble finding it in some of these posts. No doubt there is an educational, learning and attitude deficit, but on which end? Practicing mindfulness, compassion and willingness is sometimes difficult. It is sometimes difficult to remember nursing is a team effort. Communication is essential to good care. Is this an example that nurses eat their young?
Where to start?
I have compassion, but don't believe that means I need to allow someone who is willfully oblivious and determined not to improve to persist in a position they have consistently demonstrated, over a period of months, they are unfit for. This is particularly the case when doing so utilises scarce resources that could instead be spent of a other staff members with aptitude and an interest in developing and improving their skills and practice. At least as importantly, I also have compassion for, and a duty toward, my patients - ensuring the nurses involved in their care are competent, professional and recognise their limitations is an essential part of my role as a leader on my ward.
As has been described repeatedly in posts on this thread, particularly from the OP, in the cases being discussed here the educational, learning and attitude defecits fall squarely with the new nurses who, despite multiple approaches made by a number of staff in a variety of ways, persist in sub-optimal behaviour. In Ruby's OP the nurse in question refused to undertake any additional learning to understand the rationales underlying her care. To use one of Ruby's examples, if you don't understand that there's a connection between taking the INR and administering (or withholding, or having reviewed) the Coumadin then you're not only not doing your job, you're actively endangering the life of a patient entrusted to you.
Communication is essential, and nursing is a team exercise, but the communication and the team work have to go both ways. If this isn't the case then there's a problem. Sometimes the problem is with the rest of the team (ie the established staff). Ruby's point in starting this thread is that sometimes the problem is with the newer staff member, who is unable to see past her (or his) unfounded feelings of unfair, unjustified persecution to take responsibility for their contribution.
"Is this an example that nurses eat their young?" No. This is an example that some young nurses aren't suited to nursing unless they learn from their experiences.
"Is this an example that nurses eat their young?" No. This is an example that some young nurses aren't suited to nursing unless they learn from their experiences.
Worth repeating.
Not everyone can be President ... an astronaut ... a ballerina ... a star athelete ... etc. when they grow up. Part of the process of finding OUR niche in the world is learning to accept the fact that we are not well-suited for some other things.
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
after reading most of these posts it is obvious that there are different perspectives. i find it interesting that compassion is a 'requirement' for being a good nurse, but i have trouble finding it in some of these posts. no doubt there is an educational, learning and attitude deficit, but on which end? practicing mindfulness, compassion and willingness is sometimes difficult. it is sometimes difficult to remember nursing is a team effort. communication is essential to good care. is this an example that nurses eat their young?
no, what it is is an example that sometimes new nurses who get fired for very good reasons -- such as just not being able to put it all together after multiple second chances with multiple new preceptors -- are the ones crying "nurses eat their young!" i see far more examples in my own unit of nurses who cannot cut it for whatever reason -- they cannot critically think, they haven't get mastered time management or prioritization to the tiniest degree, they haven't grasped the concept of working nights, weekends and holidays and repeatedly call off sick when they're scheduled for one or they come to work chronically late or chronicallly impaired -- than i see anything that could even by a stretch of the imagination be called nurses eating their young. in my experience, that phrase is used as an excuse for why someone couldn't succeed far more than it's the reason. far, far more.
Not everyone can be President ... an astronaut ... a ballerina ... a star athelete ... etc. when they grow up. Part of the process of finding OUR niche in the world is learning to accept the fact that we are not well-suited for some other things.
Specializes in ICU, MS, Radiology, Long term care.
While I agree women can be viscious, I don't believe it is only nursing in which this occurs. They are trained throughout school to be evil and by evil mothers as they grow up! But as someone who has worked with men and has learned that at least women are evil in your face, men will trip you up quietly smiling all the while. However they do perform better as team members.
That being said, the money portion is very true. If my ER precepts a new grad for 22-25 weeks they are with another nurse. One salary is completely shot to hell, certifications, and classes also cost a fortune. How much is a round of PALs, BLS, ACLS, and ABLS worth? How about IV certification and trauma courses? I am not sure about 100K but am definitely sure of about 50K.
Maisy
So, there is a price on life? (But, I may be quietly smiling while tripping you up.) Do you agree that men, as well as women, can be stereotyped?
llg, I get ya too. But reading how you gotta have "the right stuff", to be one of the "few, the proud..." yadaaaaaa. It's a silly Johnson and Johnson nursing commercial after a while to me and a whole lotta horse you no what. Nursing often sux, and then you got this lie about the 10s of thousands it costs for someone to do a quicky on how to set up an IV, ACLS, etc. Sub par is what I call this type of training. If you got minimum 6 months to a year residency, then we can start putting a price tag. But seriously, New grad nurse training is not what I would call premium quality stuff that I'd pay for, now come on, really?
llg, I get ya too. But reading how you gotta have "the right stuff", to be one of the "few, the proud..." yadaaaaaa. It's a silly Johnson and Johnson nursing commercial after a while to me and a whole lotta horse you no what. Nursing often sux, and then you got this lie about the 10s of thousands it costs for someone to do a quicky on how to set up an IV, ACLS, etc. Sub par is what I call this type of training. If you got minimum 6 months to a year residency, then we can start putting a price tag. But seriously, New grad nurse training is not what I would call premium quality stuff that I'd pay for, now come on, really?
I'm sorry you have had such negative experiences as a nurse that it has given you such a low opinion of the profession. But the truth is, nursing is not for everyone. Some people do fine: others do not. Sometimes, those who fail, fail because they lack the knowledge and/or skills necessary to do the job. Other times, they lack personal qualities that make them poor employees and team members. I don't think it's the "few, the proud, etc." Nursing doesn't have to be that exclusive. But certainly there are people in this world who need to be fired -- or counselled to resign and try some other job.
And yes, orientation DO cost thousands of dollars. You are obviously not taking the cost of the salary and benefits into consideration. While the new employee is on orientation, they are getting paid -- but not helping the employer generate additional income. That's where the big expense of nursing orientation (and much other education) is.
llg, I get ya too. But reading how you gotta have "the right stuff", to be one of the "few, the proud..." yadaaaaaa. It's a silly Johnson and Johnson nursing commercial after a while to me and a whole lotta horse you no what. Nursing often sux, and then you got this lie about the 10s of thousands it costs for someone to do a quicky on how to set up an IV, ACLS, etc. Sub par is what I call this type of training. If you got minimum 6 months to a year residency, then we can start putting a price tag. But seriously, New grad nurse training is not what I would call premium quality stuff that I'd pay for, now come on, really?
no, just being literatl and concrete....still dont get where that comment came from, except maybe out of the sky blue sky..
The costs associated with orientation start before the staff member does - factor in decisions about staffing requirements, advertising, labour costs of screening applications and setting up interviews, generation of files (for CVs and other data), the time to prepare for and conduct interviews, post-interview evaluation of candidates, checking references other legalities (eg registration status, criminal check), notification of successful and unsuccessful applicants, generating and mailing out pro forma paperwork, HR resources, pay roll, parking etc and you're looking at a chunk of time and money before the staff set foot in the hospital. And those are just the items off the top of my head. It's amazing to me that these costs aren't weighed more heavily when hospitals decide to focus on recruitment over retention.
Sure, but training is required for every skilled or task oriented job out there.
Nursing jobs are not exclusive or special in any way. This industry just somehow gets away with this myth of undue hardship as if it were to say, "Oh! Do you know the suffering the Corporation has taken on your employ as a new nurse? You need to forever be grateful for the opportunity afforded you, as otherwise you'd be on the streets" - attitude. Reminds me of Oliver Twist.
As a second career nurse, I don't fall for all the dust-up. I find it hilarious. Why on earth do so many fall for this line? I'll never know. I guess it could be that healthcare is a "closed" environment, if you have no awareness of the outside, you are satisfied with whatever you are fed.
I think that, interesting though this discussion is, we're moving beyond the scope of the thread - perhaps a new thread debating and discussing this aspect?
talaxandra
3,037 Posts
Where to start?
I have compassion, but don't believe that means I need to allow someone who is willfully oblivious and determined not to improve to persist in a position they have consistently demonstrated, over a period of months, they are unfit for. This is particularly the case when doing so utilises scarce resources that could instead be spent of a other staff members with aptitude and an interest in developing and improving their skills and practice. At least as importantly, I also have compassion for, and a duty toward, my patients - ensuring the nurses involved in their care are competent, professional and recognise their limitations is an essential part of my role as a leader on my ward.
As has been described repeatedly in posts on this thread, particularly from the OP, in the cases being discussed here the educational, learning and attitude defecits fall squarely with the new nurses who, despite multiple approaches made by a number of staff in a variety of ways, persist in sub-optimal behaviour. In Ruby's OP the nurse in question refused to undertake any additional learning to understand the rationales underlying her care. To use one of Ruby's examples, if you don't understand that there's a connection between taking the INR and administering (or withholding, or having reviewed) the Coumadin then you're not only not doing your job, you're actively endangering the life of a patient entrusted to you.
Communication is essential, and nursing is a team exercise, but the communication and the team work have to go both ways. If this isn't the case then there's a problem. Sometimes the problem is with the rest of the team (ie the established staff). Ruby's point in starting this thread is that sometimes the problem is with the newer staff member, who is unable to see past her (or his) unfounded feelings of unfair, unjustified persecution to take responsibility for their contribution.
"Is this an example that nurses eat their young?" No. This is an example that some young nurses aren't suited to nursing unless they learn from their experiences.