Do you feel that humans are innately abusive/cruel?

Energizer Bunny · Jul 17, 2004

The only time I can remember acting cruely towards someone to exert power was in high school ONE TIME. I wasn't even going to respond to this thread but the fact that some of you think children are mean has got me fried. yes, there are bad ones out there. Of course there are. But I firmly believe that they have not been taught how to love and be kind and treat others as they wish to be treated. I look at my five year old, three year old and nine month old and they really don't know how to be mean to another human being. Even when they hit each other and I reprimand them, they are immediately sorry and we have a talk about what they have done and why. The only way my children will end up being mean bullies is if I stop being involved in their lives or if I stop talking to them and showing them how to treat others.

Now, my husband would agree with you, OP, that humans are basically cruel and abusive. He and I differ on this immensely. I believe that we all have great capacity to love and be charitable and MANY of us do so on a regular basis. If we don't, maybe we should look at our original upbringing. We are brought into the world innocent, knowing nothing and are TAUGHT how to act.

Dixiedi · Jul 17, 2004

I too do not believe children are cruel, they lack the ethical and moral framework that is developed from around the age 10+, any unusually cruel child before that age I would suggest is a product of some traumatic experiences, or a poor parenting role model.. or both.
As for animals, well they too lack that ethical framework they are simply doing what comes naturally... and from a human perspective many animals can be incredibly cruel... but thats the point... they are'nt human and its a mistake to apply our values to them. Here in Australia we had a surfer killed by a shark a few days ago... i thought it was very telling that his brother arued against hunting the shark down... "that would just be a pointless act of revenge".. the authorities duly took the families point of view in to account and are currently hunting the shark down anyway.
My avatar comes form the british comedy show 'Red Dwarf' and his name is MrFlibble... he is psychotic and shoots people down with lazer beams from his eyes... lol :)
regards StuPer

I think you have the childs' innate tendencies confused with the moral and ethical behaviors our parents teach us. We are born self centered, cruel to the point of murder (when we are big enough) to get what we want. Our upbringing teaches us their are better ways.

StuPer · Jul 17, 2004

Hello Dixiedi,

Well I agree with much of your post, but differ in interpretation. Where as you would say "self centred, cruel to the point of murder (when we are big enough) to get what we want" I would say amoral (obviously because morals have not been learnt), and as with every baby of every animal, a survivalist. Children do not have the capacity for murder unless it is imprinted on them, they do however, have a capacity to try and take what they need from others no matter what. This may accidentally lead to injury or worse, but the intention to kill is not there, just to meet immature needs.

While much of what I say is simply my opinion, I should add that most of the extensive research that has been done into child development agrees with the notion of learnt behaviours rather than intrinsic cruelty. It is we as adults with our morals and ethics who interpret childhood behaviours as cruel and selfish.

We are born with a survival instinct, for example it has been shown that the reason babies have cute faces is deliberately to play on the protective instincts of their carers, this helps ensure survival.

But this instinct can be easily labelled as cruelty when seen against adult societal norms.

regards StuPer

finness · Jul 19, 2004

my question to you is: what exactly are you arguing for or against? that this topic not be discussed and people not post honestly on how they feel? do you really think that its not constructive or useful to discuss this sort of thing and if so, why did u post?

not at all!! at one point during my freshman year, i was considering a political science major, so this sort of discussion is right up my alley. the human psyche is indeed complex and intriguing--discussing it in an open forum with like minded professionals is a most exceptional idea. that is why i posted. :) secondly, i wasn't arguing anything. i posted about a recent study--which pertained to this discussion--and made the point that i believe we become what society wants us to be. if everyone goes around saying that we are violent, obnoxious creatures, more likely then not, we will begin to exhibit those behaviors. a simple sociological principle--negativity begets negativity. i was "shaking my head" because this board's general consensus seemed to be rather bleak. i am allowed to feel disappointed, aren't i? i was only trying to participate in this open forum; not be condemnatory. i believe we just had a misunderstanding, but if not, let me know and i will try to refrain from posting under subjects that i am passionate and stick to ones about which i am lukewarm. :clown: but seriously susanna, if i came across as condescending, i really do apologize!

susanna · Jul 25, 2004

no, no, of course you can feel dissapointed and say whatever you want to say. i should not have lashed out angrily even if someone was trying to argue against having this thread. i agree: this is supposed to be an open forum. i'm sorry for being overbearing and i'm sorry that i got so riled up and accusatory. you don't have to apologize.

not at all!! at one point during my freshman year, i was considering a political science major, so this sort of discussion is right up my alley. the human psyche is indeed complex and intriguing--discussing it in an open forum with like minded professionals is a most exceptional idea. that is why i posted. :) secondly, i wasn't arguing anything. i posted about a recent study--which pertained to this discussion--and made the point that i believe we become what society wants us to be. if everyone goes around saying that we are violent, obnoxious creatures, more likely then not, we will begin to exhibit those behaviors. a simple sociological principle--negativity begets negativity. i was "shaking my head" because this board's general consensus seemed to be rather bleak. i am allowed to feel disappointed, aren't i? i was only trying to participate in this open forum; not be condemnatory. i believe we just had a misunderstanding, but if not, let me know and i will try to refrain from posting under subjects that i am passionate and stick to ones about which i am lukewarm. but seriously susanna, if i came across as condescending, i really do apologize!

maybe i'm the kind of person people like to confess their dark sides to but my friends (and they are my friends and not ennemis)(and i am glad this is an anonymous forum) admit to me that they like to see others fall down and gossip about people who have problems because it makes them feel good when others have it so bad.

i think i must be or must have been like this too on the inside but had it conditioned out of me. i think it is because i've seen so many bad things happen to people close to me that its been engrained that i feel connected to and empathatic with everyone in the world who has problems and are suffering. thus, this is why i am not like this and do not gain any plesure from being cruel or seeing others suffer.

i don't think my friends or family are particulary bad people, but, they do get pleasure out of seeing bad things arrive to other people. so, i guess that this is just human, ya know, everyone is like this unless it gets conditioned out of you somehow. and that this is not something you should try to change because why would you want to condition people to suffer other peoples' pains? why not just let them be cruel and abusive? what can you do, be cruel and abusive to them so that they know what everyone else's suffering is like so that they don;t get pleasure anymore out of other peoples' suffering? that wouldn't be right.

finness · Jul 26, 2004

aww...you know you're my gurl! no need to apologize. i know it's been said that a lot of people use mental illness as a "cop out" to excuse bad behavior. maybe they do--but sociopathic behaviors such as taking joy in others suffering are truly against grain, and to me, indicate the presence of mental illness. of course i am not a pdoc, and am right there with you in always trying to be empathetic. i think it was plato who said that we can not knowingly do wrong, because if we knew the full consequences of the behavior before hand, we wouldn't do it. this bleeding heart tends to buy into that philosophy. it makes it a little easier to forgive these behaviors in others, anyway.

Thunderwolf, MSN, RN · Oct 17, 2004

I think our innate tendency is to be selfish, straight from the crib. However, I think also, there is a continuum from wallowing in it to moving beyond it to unselfishness. I think most folks are in the middle as they get older. When stress abounds or crisis hits or the culture allows it or opportunities present themselves, people slide down more to their innate tendency to be selfish. The small percentage of folks who do not, well, they stand out and catch most everyones' admiration and attention...Mother Theresa, for example. These people become our living saints.

Gianantoni · Oct 27, 2004

No, I don't think humans are innately cruel. Your question makes me wonder if you came to this conclusion after all your years of doing psych nursing. Personally, and sad to say, as a psych nurse, I have seen more antisocial behavior and dysfunction among staff than patients. In that vein, I have a question... do you think that dysfunctional people are attracted to the psychiatric professions or do they become dysfunctional or more dysfunctional because of their experiences in the psych field. I myself know that since doing psych nursing for over 7 years, I need even more time for solitude and shy away from social situations. I do not enjoy people like I used to. Any thoughts?

Gianantoni · Oct 27, 2004

No, I don't think humans are innately cruel. Your question makes me wonder if you came to this conclusion after all your years of doing psych nursing. Personally, and sad to say, as a psych nurse, I have seen more antisocial behavior and dysfunction among staff than patients. In that vein, I have a question... do you think that dysfunctional people are attracted to the psychiatric professions or do they become dysfunctional or more dysfunctional because of their experiences in the psych field. I myself know that since doing psych nursing for over 7 years, I need even more time for solitude and shy away from social situations. I do not enjoy people like I used to. Any thoughts?

boulergirl, CNA · Oct 27, 2004

I am going back and forth in my mind about this after reading this thread...

I mean, watch just about any reality show and you come away with the feeling that people get a high off of hurting each other, sometimes deeply. And of course, the audience eats it right up because humans are a voyeuristic bunch. Don't believe me? Talk shows have been thriving for years. We sit in our homes and get entertained by other people's personal business.

The corporate world and the dating scene are not much better. Both are based on the thinking, "Look out for Number One," and "Kill the competition". Ugh.

Then there's the bullying situation in public schools. Strong kids pick on the weak ones and adults don't interfere because "bullying toughens them up". I'm sure it does--we have the Columbine killers for evidence.

On the other hand...there is still good being done in the world. Sure, it might be selfishly motivated (as someone once said), but at least good is being done. If this is a bad thing, then those of us who work in service-oriented professions might as well hang up our badges and abandon ourselves to our baser natures. Let the human race annihilate itself!!!!

These are just my humble opinions. Although this topic is scary, it makes for an interesting discussion and something to think about. I like deep discussions. Makes me think. There's not enough thinking or meaty conversation in American society anymore--and I'm being serious.

boulergirl, CNA · Oct 27, 2004