Praying in the work place

[RipeTomato]

Hi everybody,

I'm three months into my new job as a hospice RNCM and have been learning a lot. I generally love, love, love my job.

My question today is about praying in the workplace. I know that Medicare requires a spiritual counselor on staff, but I also know that patients can refuse that service.

At my work place, meetings have recently started to begin with prayer lead by the SC. This seems a bit odd to me, coming from years of experience in the work world where things like prayer before meetings did not happen.

Also, I hear a lot of statements from fellow workers that I find offensive regarding patients having a hard time with EOL because they "don't have a belief system." They have a belief system, it just may not be the same as other people. From my limited experience, it seems people die differently, not relatable solely to their belief system. Some with strong beliefs have a hard time, others who don't believe find peace at the end.

I will pray with my patients all they want if that brings them peace and comfort, but prayer in the work place feels like a violation.

Thoughts?

[PRICHARILLAisMISSED]

I'd like to ask some questions here, if it's ok.

What ever happened to letting people do whatever they wanted as long as it isn't hurting anyone? BECAUSE IF YOU WANT TO HELP, USE YOUR NURSING INTERVENTIONS, NOT PRAYER I just went back and read many of the posts on this thread, and some people act like other people praying (or not praying for/with them or a pt) is the worse thing to happen in the history of the world? BECAUSE ITS A FREE WORLD. IF I WANTED TO PRAY, ID BE A CHRISTIAN OR GO TO CHURCHWhy is it like this? Who gives a **** what other people do religion wise? I DON'T, JUST FONT TAKE UP MY TIME GOING THROUGH YOUR RITUALS

For the religious people-Why is it offensive if someone doesn't believe what you believe? How is it any of your business anyway?

For the non-religious people-same questions. Plus, why would you be "offended" (wow, that word is thrown around so much today, huh?) if a religious person wanted to pray with/for you? BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THINGS YOU CAN BE DOING FOR ME. even if you're an atheist why do you not just be content that the other person is trying to be there for you? BECAUSE I DON'T WANT YOU THERE SHOVING YOUR BELIEFS IN MY WAY. DO SOMETHING FOR ME, DON'T ASK YOUR INVISIBLE BEST FRIEND TO HELP ME

I think people should just mind there own business regarding what other people's religious beliefs are. Life would be so much more peaceful that way. WOULD BE A LOT MORE PEACEFUL IF PEOPLE STOPPED FORCING OTHERS TO PARTICIPATE IN THINGS THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN

In response to the bolded...

BECAUSE IF YOU WANT TO HELP, USE YOUR NURSING INTERVENTIONS, NOT PRAYER

But nowornever, they are doing that. The prayer is just extra. It isn't negatively impacting the nursing care the residents are provided (I hope lol :) )

BECAUSE ITS A FREE WORLD. IF I WANTED TO PRAY, ID BE A CHRISTIAN OR GO TO CHURCH

It is a free country (free world is a bit of a stretch)! I agree. And just like you are free to decline participating in prayer, others are free to pray.

I DON'T, JUST FONT TAKE UP MY TIME GOING THROUGH YOUR RITUALS

If you just decline to participate and walk away it wouldn't take up any of your time...

BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THINGS YOU CAN BE DOING FOR ME.

Those "more effective" things are being done for the pt's already. As stated above the prayers are in addition to that. And if the pt doesn't want the prayers they only need to voice that and they will not be asked by that provider to pray anymore. No need for anyone to get angry about it.

BECAUSE I DON'T WANT YOU THERE SHOVING YOUR BELIEFS IN MY WAY. DO SOMETHING FOR ME, DON'T ASK YOUR INVISIBLE BEST FRIEND TO HELP ME

OUCH! Fair enough. And if a pt were to say this to a provider then the providers will refrain from asking their "Invisible best friend" to help them. BTW nothing is being "shoved" your way. they're being suggested and those suggestions will cease once you ask it too.

WOULD BE A LOT MORE PEACEFUL IF PEOPLE STOPPED FORCING OTHERS TO PARTICIPATE IN THINGS THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN

Agreed. I admit that it works both ways.

Oh, and for the record, I'm not a particularly religious man. However I don't see the harm in anyone asking me to pray with them. I take it as a compliment that they want to share something of meaning with me. I don't see how others in my shoes get offended by it.

And no worries about the fat thumbs lol. I've unintentionally offended quite a few people on this forum. Enough that even if you were yelling I'd kinda have to let it slide :)

[PRICHARILLAisMISSED]

And I find it interesting that none of the "what do you have against prayer" crowd have responded directly to the question about if the meetings were opened with prayers *other* than those that are Christian.

I suspect very much that these people would object very loudly if tomorrow their manager opened the meeting with a prayer from the Qur'an.

I'd have no problem whatsoever. I just wouldn't participate if I didn't want to.

[itsnowornever, BSN, RN]

.

Well... I'm currently a teacher at an elementary school...our faculty prays for our students and each other:)

And if its a secular school you should be glad I'm not a parent there, your heads would spin with the speed of a lawsuit! :)

Posting from my phone, ease forgive my fat thumbs! :)

[itsnowornever, BSN, RN]

If this were a Muslim country, fine. It's not.

Not a Christian country either

Posting from my phone, ease forgive my fat thumbs! :)

[weemsp]

Right, either everyone's equal or no one's equal.

Starting a meeting with a Christian prayer is absolutely no different than staring it with a Wiccan ritual. Or a prayer to the flying spaghetti monster. All equally out of place in that place at that time.

Imagine for a minute if, before meetings, rounds, pt endorsement, etc...ALL religions were represented by prayer, rituals, chants, whatever....( because all's fair, right?) How long would it be before anyone did any actual work??? Whether Christianity is the majority or not...if we do representation of one faith....where does it stop?

How many employers or you faithful co-workers would be tolerant of a Muslim being called to prayer 5 times a day? ( just by example) And further to that, would you be willing to have that interrupt your work day?

I am a firm believer that religion has no place in a diverse workplace, regardless of how harmless it really is....and it is harmless. I also think it has the potential to be segregating to the " non-believers" or the " other-believers".

And to say that if a place of employment has increased " non-believers" it affects morale...bla bla bla....is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I've read on this thread!

[weemsp]

And I find it interesting that none of the "what do you have against prayer" crowd have responded directly to the question about if the meetings were opened with prayers *other* than those that are Christian.

I suspect very much that these people would object very loudly if tomorrow their manager opened the meeting with a prayer from the Qur'an.

Thank you!!!!!! My thoughts exactly!!! The whole " tolerance" ideology would be history....I suspect!

[weemsp]

If this were a Muslim country, fine. It's not.

But it IS supposed to be a DIVERSE nation, is it not???

And just for interest...I am currently working and living in a Muslim country...and NOT once have I have asked to pray before I begin work....and NOT once has a co-worker asked if they could " pray for me"

I hear the call to prayer 5 times a day ( well, 4 actually because the first one is at 0530-ish) but prayer here is a private, cherished time...to be shared with Allah only.

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

OK....here is what I think......

I think we need to be tolerant of each other. I think that ...for the most part religion should be out of the boardroom and meetings...unless you work for a religious company the one would expect that this would be the norm. I worked for YEARS for a catholic facility and when I left....I dearly missed the morning an evening prayer. I missed the ever presence of the nuns...I missed Father John (RIP) being around every corner and answering codes in the middle of the night. It gave me...peace.

But we didn't start with prayers at every meeting.....there would be an occasional "blessing" at BIG corporate meetings (they were nuns after all....) But I found their unwavering presence...comforting.

I think we need to be respectful of each others religious beliefs...which is more diverse today than years ago. I have been in meeting where there are Muslims, Hindi, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Wicca/Pagan, Pentecostal, christian, Orthodox, Jew, and atheist in one room.... and yes we got along and yes we accomplished many things. (I know a diverse lot we were )

Religion/politics (amongst other topics) are polarizing topics. Everyone will have their opinion and will protect/defend their opinion to the ninth degree. What we need to remember is to be polite and supportive. Take this opportunity to learn and respect each others point of view.

Allnurses LOVE good debates a long as it is respectful and polite.

[That Guy, BSN, RN, EMT-B]

This is why I dont like religion. Something that is supposed to bring others together and teach acceptance only ends up driving people apart.

I dont care if you pray at work. I dont care if you pray for me. I dont care if you start meetings with a prayer. My "soul" wont spontaneously erupt through my ears if this happens. Just dont talk to me about converting to your beliefs.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

OK....here is what I think......

I think we need to be tolerant of each other. I think that ...for the most part religion should be out of the boardroom and meetings...unless you work for a religious company the one would expect that this would be the norm. I worked for YEARS for a catholic facility and when I left....I dearly missed the morning an evening prayer. I missed the ever presence of the nuns...I missed Father John (RIP) being around every corner and answering codes in the middle of the night. It gave me...peace.

*** I am with you. I spend years working in a Catholic Hospital. Certain things about it drove me crazy. Like how no forms of birth control were covered under our insurance. I loved certain other things. Mainly the fantastic chaplin service. For me it was Father Nick. Father Nick was always there whenever we had a code, or were withdrawing life support on a patient. Either standing at the bedside, often holding a family memeber's hand, or in cases where is wasn't welcome at the bedside standing a respectful distance away just in case he was needed.

I once had a terrable motorcycle trauma patient who happend to be homosexual. His long term SO was constantly at the bedside. The patients parent's where missionaries in Africa. It took them 3 days to arrive at the bedside from Africa and when they did they freaked out that we were allowing his same sex partner to sit at the bedside and hold his hand. There was a lot of yelling and even threats. NONE of the nurses were willing to forbid the SO from visiting his long term partner. At the same time we didn't want his parents to not be able to visit their son The parents insisted that the SO was NOT part of the family and had no right to be there. Our hospital policy states that family is who the patient says it is. Our patient could not speak for himself but we assumed that the same sex partner was his family. They had lived together for 16 years (I checked their drivers lisences).

This made for a tense and very uncomfortable situation for the nurses. I called Father Nick and asked him to help. He pulled the parents and SO into a room and did I don't know what but when they came out all was calm and an arrangment had been reached. The parents would only visit on day shift and the SO would only visit on NOC shift. A side benefit to our patient is that he had people who loved him at the bedside 24/7 (except for when the unit was closed for 2 hours at each shift change).

I also once observed Father Nick volenteer to be the one to explain to a 7 year old girl that her mommy was dead. He did it with grace and love and did it beautifuly, if such a thing is possible.

Now I work in a secular hospital and it's not the same. We have chaplins but none of them are Father Nick.

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

*** I am with you. I spend years working in a Catholic Hospital. Certain things about it drove me crazy. Like how no forms of birth control were covered under our insurance. I loved certain other things. Mainly the fantastic chaplin service. For me it was Father Nick. Father Nick was always there whenever we had a code, or were withdrawing life support on a patient. Either standing at the bedside, often holding a family member's hand, or in cases where is wasn't welcome at the bedside standing a respectful distance away just in case he was needed.

I once had a terrible motorcycle trauma patient who happened to be homosexual. His long term SO was constantly at the bedside. The patients parent's where missionaries in Africa. It took them 3 days to arrive at the bedside from Africa and when they did they freaked out that we were allowing his same sex partner to sit at the bedside and hold his hand. There was a lot of yelling and even threats. NONE of the nurses were willing to forbid the SO from visiting his long term partner. At the same time we didn't want his parents to not be able to visit their son The parents insisted that the SO was NOT part of the family and had no right to be there. Our hospital policy states that family is who the patient says it is. Our patient could not speak for himself but we assumed that the same sex partner was his family. They had lived together for 16 years (I checked their drivers lisences).

This made for a tense and very uncomfortable situation for the nurses. I called Father Nick and asked him to help. He pulled the parents and SO into a room and did I don't know what but when they came out all was calm and an arrangement had been reached. The parents would only visit on day shift and the SO would only visit on NOC shift. A side benefit to our patient is that he had people who loved him at the bedside 24/7 (except for when the unit was closed for 2 hours at each shift change).

I also once observed Father Nick volunteer to be the one to explain to a 7 year old girl that her mommy was dead. He did it with grace and love and did it beautifully, if such a thing is possible.

Now I work in a secular hospital and it's not the same. We have chaplains but none of them are Father Nick.

Thanks that made me smile.......:) I needed that today!!!!!

[One1, BSN, RN]

I do not think that I should have to spend time staying quiet while you pray, as it is wasting my time.

Come on...Just one sentence prior to this you state that you "...respect other people's religious choices...," yet it is too much to ask of you to be quiet while they take a minute (or less in many cases!) to do something that is very meaningful to them. (BTW, you can also just walk away from them, you know? you don't have to stand there and listen...) What do you think it means to respect other people's religious choices? Do you just think that it means that you don't openly criticize their beliefs? Seriously, how much can you really respect their religious choices and beliefs if it bothers you to stay quiet for half a minute? BTW I'm not attacking you, but if you reread your post you should understand why I ask these questions.

Come on...Just one sentence prior to this you state that you "...respect other people's religious choices...," yet it is too much to ask of you to be quiet while they take a minute (or less in many cases!) to do something that is very meaningful to them. (BTW, you can also just walk away from them, you know? you don't have to stand there and listen...) What do you think it means to respect other people's religious choices?

If you finished reading the other half of that sentence you quoted you would see that I said IN THEIR OWN TIME. I really do not care what you believe in, and if praying is for you, then I don't care either, as long as you do not involve me in this activity. You might call it dramatic, but I am fed up by many people's religious sense of one-sided entitlement. I am expected to respect other's beliefs by quietly having to stand by and wait patiently while they finish their prayer. How is that respecting my lifestyle in which prayer has no place? Now, if I can walk away or leave the room while you (not you personally) pray so I can move on with my life then I have no issue with what you do, because again, you do it on your own tine. Unfortunately, I have been in many situations where walking away is not an option, and I am expected to wait quietly until prayer is over, and that is not ok in my opinion.

I will try and keep my answer short here, but let me say that as a non-religious person, it is not a sign of comfort for me when a caretaker comes into my room and asks me if we can/want to pray. That is a very personal question and more often than not sparks an uncomfortable moment when I tell that person that I am absolutely not interested. Maybe it is because I am white and live in Suburbia, but I have found that people are so convinced that I will happily agree to prayer (read, am of their religion) that they are most often taken aback my my refusal. The resulting awkwardness on their part and annoyance on mine, in my opinion, damages the patient-caretaker relationship more than it helps. Now, if the patient requests spiritual support then by all means provide it. Personally, I offer to call in a chaplain or other spiritual support to provide that care.