Posters that are not nurses

[Cattitude]

i'm going to keep this nice and polite i promise mods!:)

i'm just hoping that one of the smart student/new nurse posters can answer this.

i know that we have quite a few people on here that do not have the title nurse, either rn/lpn. we have some great, intelligent students,new nurses,cna's, techs, etc. most of them add a lot of interesting elements and variety to the posts and i enjoy reading them.

however, i really want to know something. i have noticed this with several other posters(not the above ones) on several occasions. why on earth would someone that is not a nurse think they could ever tell a nurse how to do their job? or think that limited clinical experience is enough to say they know what a nurse does?

i mean, i would never think of say, jumping in a thread telling ob nurses how they should do something or how they could do it better. i've never done ob (not counting school)

i guess this is just frustrating as it seems people think it's so easy to do this job! it's not, it has hard times, fun times, sad,break your heart in two times. but it's not a job that you can learn how to do in a few semesters of school. it takes years. fortunately, i think that most of our students here know that and respect that.

so, what's the thought on the ones that don't know? is it their egos? overconfidence?

i'm really interested in replies.

[58flyer]

What's wrong with a different perspective? If the only people nurses listen to are other nurses, we'd be finding ourselves thinking in an ever decreasing sized box. Bring it on I say. Maybe I can learn something from outside my box. And maybe I can share what I've learned with the non-nurse. Keep communication open. When we stop talking, listening and sharing, we're done for. Might as well close all the schools. I've seen the teacher learn from the student.

:yeahthat: I am one of those posters who is not a nurse (yet). When I first signed on to this forum, I did so thinking that I would probably never actually post. I wanted to learn and maybe ask a question or two.

I am not totally ignorant of what goes on in a healthcare setting. I spent a year working as an orderly in a hospital while doing my pre-reqs to get into nursing school. I got into nursing school, then dropped out after encountering an unusually high level of hostility. During my law enforcement career, I worked as an evidence tech, and took some CE courses along with forensic nurses in the area of sex crimes investigation. Spent 6 years in that field alone with a lot of professional interaction with medical personnel. I also spent a lot of years in secondary employment providing police security in the emergency room at a level 1 trauma center.

That said, I have tried not to post on any subject matter unless I felt there was something positive I could contribute to the discussion. I have gotten my share of questions as to why I am even here. I usually don't try to post any responses to those venting posts. Hope I haven't offended anyone, if I have, here's a peace offering :beer: ...

[adrienurse, LPN]

I think we should acknowledge that students and new nurses and vets can all offer something valuable. As a student, I'm being taught the most up-to-date research based information. But a vet nurse has been on the job and can offer his/her experience. Personally, I hope to learn from my profs but also learn from the valuable vet nurses.

Seth I'm not disagreeing with you. expanding on your point.

It goes both ways. It's your job as a student to learn what your courses are teaching you. On the other hand you're sent to your clinicals to learn by observing. Any nurse can tell you why a certain thing's procedure is done a little differently, and there may be a valid reason for this. This is extending the learning process for you. A student that spends their time complaining about the difference without enquiring as to why is not learning from being on the unit. You're there to observe, not to spy.

Non-nurses need to acknowledge that nurses do not stop learning once they start their positions as nurses. They will learn different approaches and adapt what they are going so that it benefits the patient more. They also have their eyes on the best practice literature because they are required to keep up on their information. What it done in practice is often done because it is adapted to the patient at hand and their needs.

[Sheri257]

Good point. The "wait until you're a nurse" reply is not a good response and is very condescending.

Not necessarily. As a new grad who's posted as a student on this board for a long time now, I have to admit that a lot of times they were right. Maybe we should wait until we're nurses.

When I was a student just starting out with just one patient, I didn't have a clue. By the time I started getting a full load of patients both working as an extern and, also, during preceptorship, I realized how right they were and how tough it is.

And I'm spoiled because I live in California where we have only five patients. I don't know how you guys in other states manage with 8-10 patients.

Yet ... I see students lecturing RN's about how they need to take breaks and manage their time better. I personally found those comments absurd.

And I've seen really disrespectful comments from students like "what did you expect, flowers?"

I think some students ... myself included ... were dead wrong a lot of the time. I hope I wasn't as rude as some of these other posters but, I also realize that I definitely didn't know what I was talking about. I should have just kept my mouth shut.

:typing

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Not necessarily. As a new grad who's posted as a student on this board for a long time now, I have to admit that a lot of times they were right. Maybe we should wait until we're nurses.

When I was a student just starting out with just one patient, I didn't have a clue. By the time I started getting a full load of patients both working as an extern and, also, during preceptorship, I realized how right they were and how tough it is.

And I'm spoiled because I live in California where we have only five patients. I don't know how you guys in other states manage with 8-10 patients.

Yet ... I see students lecturing RN's about how they need to take breaks and manage their time better. I personally found those comments absurd.

And I've seen really disrespectful comments from students like "what did you expect, flowers?"

I think some students ... myself included ... were dead wrong a lot of the time. I hope I wasn't as rude as some of these other posters but, I also realize that I definitely didn't know what I was talking about. I should have just kept my mouth shut.

:typing

I guess it depends upon the context it's use. Until someone has walked a mile in my shoes perhaps it's not appropriate to tell me what to do.

In other respects a curt "wait until your a nurse" can be a brush off.

It's kind of like a parent who says "because I said so" or "as long as you're under my roof, you follow my rules"....end of discussion. One should offer at least some validation and justification for what you say, rather than brush someone off.

I think some students ... myself included ... were dead wrong a lot of the time. I hope I wasn't as rude as some of these other posters but, I also realize that I definitely didn't know what I was talking about. I should have just kept my mouth shut.

This is precisely what we are talking about. Becoming a real nurse in the real world changes your perspective a bit. Not in every aspect as Marie stated above. I hope those who are not nurses, yet telling us how to do our jobs read your post. LOL Thanks for the honesty.

[rita359]

I'm a new grad who's about to take the NCLEX. But I have noticed some pretty disrespectful posts from my fellow students. I don't know much but, at least I worked enough during school to get an idea of how tough the job is.

Sometimes I think it's also because the teachers actually encourage this. One of them wanted us to report "wrong" things that floor nurses did during clinicals ... which, I thought was absolutely ridiculous. The instructor was going to report these supposed violations to the charge nurse. It was unbelievable.

Needless to say, I never participated in that ridiculous exercise.

:typing

When such instructor walks in my shoes for a shift and can do everything by the book then I think she may have room to criticize. For instance, capping needles. I've been through capping needles, breaking needles off with the caps, cutting them off with a device for that purpose etc. It has been the hardest thing for me to get used to not capping needles. I "know" I am not supposed to do it but a 35 year habit is hard to break(think smoking). Washing hands every 2 minutes is right up there with capping needles.

[Nurse2BStacey]

As a first semester nursing student, I can honestly say that I don't have time to worry about what everybody else is doing or saying. It takes 100% of my time and brain cells to survive this roller coaster ride that I have embarked upon. When in clinicals, I spend ALL my time concentrating on what I am doing and making sure it is as accurate as can be by the textbook (as that is what I am being graded on). If I am observing and someone does it differently that we learned from instructor - I make a note of it and move right along!!! I would never call anyone to the carpet, especially since I have NO IDEA what is right or wrong at this point. And why would any student accuse a seasoned RN of doing a procedure incorrectly??? They are there to help and mentor...I sure don't want to PI$$ them off

And my two cents on the vent threads.....my thoughts are that only a young person who has never had a serious job would ever chastise anyone for venting about work. I have worked HR for 20 yrs before deciding to become a nurse, and I can't tell you the number of times I have gone out to my car and screamed as a way to relieve stress!!! So until you have actually been there----keep your opinions to yourself!!!! We all have to have a way to release the pressure or we will blow. I think this is a great forum to do just that.

I would bet those same students that are so worried about you guys venting, are the same ones in the student forum gripping about thier instructors!!!!

[EmerNurse, BSN, RN]

I'm more than happy to read input from folks of all walks of life. Quite a bit of non-nursing life can be applicable to nursing as well. I read a book called "Throwing the Elephant", mentioned on another thread, and did find some of the management stuff fit, even though it wasn't directed at nursing.

That said, when I'm on a venting thread, either commiserating with a fellow nurses' angst or posting my own, my blood boils when I read the "You're all so heartless, if you HATE NURSING SO MUCH, GET OUT of it, I hope you're never MY nurse, I would NEVER be so MEAN, YOU SHOULD BE A PATIENT, YOU'VE NEVER BEEN IN PAIN, HAVE YOU, YOU ARE SO COLD, etc" ad nauseum comments. There truly are times when I've just worked a shift in the 7th circle of h*ll and really need to vent. Knowing that there are hundreds of nurses here who will commiserate, share their stories, and send me a cyber-understanding-hug is what gets me to bed with an easy mind so I can get up and go to work again. Also saves me money on refilling my Xanax prescription LOL.

To newbies and non-nurses - Please avoid venting threads if they upset you. Read them if you will, but in the spirit in which they are posted. As VENTS. Surely there have been times in your own life where you just HAD to whine/scream/complain about a situation just to keep your cool otherwise. This is the same. And yes, most of us nurses HAVE been patients, and we DO understand the other side, truly we do. It's simply not the focus of a venting thread.

And on the subject of students questioning experienced nurses. We ALL go through that stage in nsg school. The trick is to know when to bring up something, how to do that, and when to just hush. It is perfectly appropriate to ask your instructor "my nurse did xyz in this way, but our text book says that way... is our way just newer or are there other accepted ways?" as opposed to "that nurse sucked today, she did XYZ and should be reported!".

As many other posters stated, it's all in the presentation.

[fleur-de-lis, BSN, RN]

As a student, here is my 2 cents. I think sometimes progress results from someone with a fresh perspective making suggestions that others may not have thought of. Look at the recent buzz in the nursing field about applying methods from the airline industry into healthcare to improve outcomes. Many nursing students, like myself, are not traditional straight-out-of-high-school students, we have "past lives" in various disciplines and can bring a lot of new ideas into the field. I have also met many 18 year olds with wisdom and life experiences far beyond their years who have alot to offer, regardless of age or experience in the hospital.

I also think that there is alot of burnout among nurses today - this is admitted every day in posts to this site. I have been there too in my past career, and what it took to get me excited about my job again was a new hire to my department who had some fresh ideas and was excited herself about the job (and to show age is irrelevant, she was 20 years older than me).

All that said, there is a difference between fresh perspectives and someone pretending to know what it is like to be a nurse. I may share my ideas and thoughts on how I want to practice nursing, but no one can know that path until they have walked it. I quickly learned that there is a difference between what they teach us in school and nursing in the real world, but there are areas of nursing that I personally believe in and will not compromise. Others may do what they wish in their careers and I do not judge them - we all do the best we can with what we have at the moment.

[jill48, ASN, RN]

Over the years, I have noticed that many people I come into contact with think that just anybody can be a nurse. I personally find that to be very insulting, but I let it slide. I know how hard my job is and how hard I worked for my degree.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

.....there is a difference between fresh perspectives and someone pretending to know what it is like to be a nurse...

Good post, but the highlighted area is really an important distinction.

[Works2xs]

In a "General" forum, any post is an invitation to others to make comments. Perhaps there should be a "vent" forum for folks to empty their proverbial spleens with some expectation of NOT soliciting opposing views.

[sidebar: I really don't advocate that approach, but thought it was an idea worth expressing. A text forum is a notoriously difficult medium to convey feelings... especially negative ones. I think it would be better if folks just understood that whatever they put in these threads will garner opposing opinions and not get so wrapped around the axle when it occurs. Sometimes, folks approach these forums like a ringing phone: it holds some strange power to compel them to answer, even though they'd rather not.]

Regarding the "only the experienced need reply" type of comments - It's an exclusionary tactic that seeks to eliminate dissent without the messy business of actually addressing the point made in the "rookie's" post. It always strikes me as something just about one "click" above name-calling on the "irrelevant argument" scale.

[nursemike, ASN, RN]

I wonder if it might helpful, as many do, to include the word "vent" in the subject line. For sure, I know I'm not the first guy to respond with advice when a s.o. was just looking to vent, and I've been on the other side of it a couple of times. It probably isn't surprising that it occurs on an internet discussion board, too.

I do think it might be worthwhile, occassionally, to question how valuable venting is as a stress-management tool. I suspect it can be useful--to blow off a little steam in order to later confront a problem calmly, or even occassionally to relieve stress over a situation too minor to merit confrontation. However, there are some risks when venting becomes a substitute for problem-solving. I think we all sometimes gripe because we feel powerless to change what's bothering us, but that can make it too easy to assume we're powerless. Stress, anger, anxiety--they can be powerful motivations for change.

Another risk is that venting can reinforce dissatisfaction. Like when you start out a little aggravated, but the more you talk, the madder you get.

Don't get me wrong. There's a line in the movie, Alien, where one character (Tom Skerrit's, maybe) tells the character played by Angela Cartwright "Stop griping." and she replies, "But I like griping." One of my favorite moments of cinematic dialog.

There's a new nurse on my unit who is notoriously cheerful and enthusiastic.

From time to time, I find myself asking the more experienced nurses whether I was as annoying as he is, last year when I was all happy and optimistic. But I haven't abandoned my initial strategy to consciously avoid burnout by resisting the temptation to make myself unhappy.

I have three little mantras I frequently repeat, to myself and sometimes aloud:

1. I love my stupid job.

2. If it was all fun, all the time, I'd have to pay to do it.

3. If they wanted a good nurse, they should have hired one.

These, and a little judicious venting, do seem to help.