Physician/Nurse relationship

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Jan 5, 2004

Originally posted by tymomrn
Our ER docs treat us with a lot of respect. They know when a nurse has good judgement. The attendings are a whole other story. As long as you tell them that you will not accept that kind of treatment and can show them that you have a brain, they will give you the respect you deserve.

It's the same in our hospital. I think it's because they get away with that sort of behavior when it's directed toward Med students, Interns, and Residents. They tend to forget that the Nurses aren't their inferiors, and that our performance isn't graded by their approval.

live4today, RN · Jan 5, 2004

Originally posted by lgflamini
It's the same in our hospital. I think it's because they get away with that sort of behavior when it's directed toward Med students, Interns, and Residents. They tend to forget that the Nurses aren't their inferiors, and that our performance isn't graded by their approval.

Where I used to work........if any nurse doesn't kiss the butt of every intern, resident, or med student you will find yourself out the door. Doctors rule there.......not nurses. Nurses don't rank in the top ten at that hospital. They are even trying for magnet status...go figure. Pitifully sad! :rolleyes:

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Jan 5, 2004

Cheerfuldoer that is sad! I can see why you left. If I didn't feel valued or respected where I work, it wouldn't be worth it to stay and put up with the other daily bullcrap, either.

live4today, RN · Jan 5, 2004

Thanks lg....that place will go down as the worst place I've ever worked in my entire life. Guess every workplace can't be a bowl full of cherries, huh?

My next job will be one in which I have total autonomy over my hours, when and where I work, and who I work for and with. Private duty nursing is what I'm shooting for now. I will never again allow someone to take away my joy of being a nurse. I love being a nurse, and caring for patients, and darn it...that's exactly what I intend to push for. :nurse:

ozzierock · Jan 6, 2004

I work at a private hospital in Australia. On day at a staff meeting we took the opportunity to point out to our manager and director of nursing that one of our medical consultants treated the nursing staff badly and was very rude and arrogant. They responded by telling us that this doctor admitted patients to our hospital and because he did that he was effectively responsible for our ability to earn a living there. so we were literally asked to accommodate his needs and tolerate his rudeness............You know it really annoys me when I see it constantly reported that the cause of the nursing shortage is because younger women are choosing professions previously dominated by males because those professions have become more female friendly and the requisite university courses are not gender biased. I agree this contributes, but they'll never cure the shortage until there is a greater understanding of:

-women will no longer tolerate working at a profession which isn't compensated financially for the level of responsibility the profession requires them to carry, and

-women will no longer tolerate working at a profession where the knowledge and skills are great and complex, but the position is not respected by the other professions they work alongside. That lack of respect is not only silently supported by the employer but goes so far as to tolerate workplace bullying to such a degree as to instruct the recipients of the bullying that they must not only tolerate it, but work harder to please the bully (as in the example above).

Many is the time I have said if I wasn't 46 (the mean age of nurses now), or had my time over I too would have chosen a different profession. Not because I don't like caring for my patients (I love that), but because the inequities and sociology of the system we work in render it soul destroying at times. Oh to be an engineer, a pilot, a marine biologist.....................

gwenith, BSN, RN · Jan 6, 2004

Ozierock - try the union - they have a zero tolerance to workplace violence policy - but I hear what you are saying and that is the reason why I work for the state goverement with all its problems - that and the best super available:chuckle

Larkspur1 · Jan 6, 2004

I am a student and was told by one of my clinical instructors that there are times that doctors and nurses do not get along because mds hate when nurses question their orders. But isn't it that it's our license as well as them that we are protecting? It's not just we question them out of spite but for our own protection?

MOHO, I'm with you! Just coz their Mds doesn't mean we have to respect them if they do not respect us back. I goes two ways!!!

:chuckle

NorthStar · Jan 6, 2004

A lot of hospitals/facilities will tolerate MD behavior simply for financial reasons. There is something that I want to throw out there.

Ever notice that physicians will back each other up NO MATTER WHAT? Even if they don't like each other, dissagree or there is obvious less than adequate standard of care being followed...they will back each other up.

Most nurses on the other hand.....don't do this. Unfortunately they are the worse at backstabbing and malicous gossip. Maybe this is because they are working with one another for hours on end.

Perhaps the trend would lean the other way if nurses were more supportive of one another and stand by each other. Nursing is not easy, the hours are long, the work is sometimes extremely stressful, and in some cases the pay stinks.

Bottom line......nurses are not responsible for MD's behavior or feelings...nor are they responsible for each other's. More success is acheived by being able to respond to adversity "informationally" instead of "personally".

TraumaQueen · Jan 6, 2004

I've personally never had any of the doctors be exceptionally rude to me.

We have a surgeon who has an order that all other orders have to be cleared through him. One day, I called him and updated him of new orders written by another doctor on the case, and he got all pissy with me and said, "You don't need to read me routine orders!" I replied with..."I'm sorry sir, but I'm just following order number yadda that states to call you with all orders for approval." "Don't read my orders to me, I know what they say!" so, I just said, "Well, now you can't yell at me tomorrow when you 'don't know about an order'"

About 15 minutes later, he called me back and was sicky sweet.... "How are ya... what's going on? Are you doing OK? How's our patient doing? Anything I can do for you before I go to bed." Are you the satanic doctor I just spoke to 15 minutes ago? :)

And, we have another surgeon that likes to give you a bogus order here and there to see if you'll question him on it.

I think we're fairly lucky in that respect. We only have a few doctors who are mean on a regular basis.

ozzierock · Jan 6, 2004

thanks gwenith, sadly my workplace has many problems not the least of which is that in August last year they changed our award without informing us they were going to, or any of the other legally required associated bodies. Not only did I warn the QNU they were about to do it, but I also informed them once they had. Apart for one phonecall from an organiser who said much (and subsequently did little) nothing. The silence is deafening. Huge problems with pay and conditions of service, but nothing from the QNU and over half the staff are members (about 6 of whom I recruited for them after my first warning phone call), so if they can't (won't) deal with these industrial issues which are supposed to be their forte, I don't hold out much hope for their ability to assist with handling a doctor with a god complex.

fins · Jan 6, 2004

Please keep in mind, this isn't in any way an attempt to excuse abusive doctors - it's just to give you an idea of why some of them are like that.

A lot of doctors are extremely unhappy with their jobs. Certainly not all, probably not most, but definitely a sizeable number. They work like crazy to get into med school. They get treated like slaves (and paid like migrant farm workers) while they're interns and residents. (If you think certain surgeons treat nurses badly, and some do, it's nothing compared to the way they treat some unlucky resident who earns their ire.)

They put up with all of this, and the enormous debt, and the stressed (and sometimes destroyed) family lives, focusing on the bright shiny brass ring of becoming an attending. And you know what? Some get there, and realize that they don't really enjoy what they do for a living. They may have thought that it was because of being a resident, but then they finally come face to face with the fact that "I don't really enjoy {fill in branch of medicine}." The hours are still long, the family life still sucks, and malpractice insurance keeps eating away at their livelihood.

But what can they do? They owe $250,000 to someone for the cost of becoming a doctor, so they can't chuck it all and go become a suntan instructor for Club Med or something.

All of this is just to say, a lot of the time you aren't being put down by an egomaniac who's stroking his/her self-image, you're being attacked by a deeply unhappy person who's lashing out at the world.

Here's the important thing though: SO WHAT? Just because somebody p*ssed in your cornflakes, don't take it out on me.

susanmary · Jan 6, 2004

Originally posted by TraumaQueen
And, we have another surgeon that likes to give you a bogus order here and there to see if you'll question him on it.

What are the circumstances around his "bogus" orders? Written orders? Verbal orders? Sounds like negligence, malpractice, and a very immature surgeon. Management, head of surgery, and risk management need to be notified of these "bogus" orders. Can you imagine the ramifications for the surgeon, nurse & hospital if a nurse carried out these bogus/trick orders? It is fraudulent to write "bogus" orders and I'm quite certain insurance/medicare/etc. would come down hard on this. There needs to be a paper trail on this surgeon...