Physician assistants

allnurses Guide · May 14, 2008

Have you got a link for that, if it is a NHS trust it would have to be under agenda for change which would make it at a band 8a but the advert would give a salary range rather than specific salary.

Be interested to investigate further.

This

is what I found which states that the salary range would be 28, 000 - 32,000 which I think is a band 6 salary range.

allnurses Guide · May 14, 2008

actually just found it,

here

sounds like quite an exciting role.

Altough it's interesting that it is not banded as agenda for change, I imagine it's because it is paid out of doctor money and is under the umbrella of the medics. It's alot of money, and they don't even have prescribing abilities which many NP's now do.

I do think that the salary reflects the fact it is supported by the medics and they have written the job description and set the salary range, dissapointing that it will undermine and possibly alientate any NP's working alongside that role.

It's a shame that the nurse practitioners in the UK have not been recognised under A4C, the Nurse practitioners that I work with are band 6's and for the responsibility that they take on this is wholly inadeqate in my opinion.

cariad · May 14, 2008

plenty of pa;s over here, although some nurses i know have applied for these position,s. nps also work with the physicians and their role seems to be comparable to a pa, but of course, theres no pay scale for hese positions over here, so all np's and pa,s can get differing pay rates. some nps dont earn as much as hospital nurses because its an "office" job.

maybe an american np will post and give us more info.

karenG · May 16, 2008

this is not a new role- it was introduced around the time they set up the MSc in first contact nursing. so about 10yrs now!

to be a PA you need to be a science graduate and then follow a training course- if i remember rightly, they didnt need to be nurses. they dont work automonously, but follow protocols etc. The first ones came over from the states (the NP association was livid as I recall) and were paid mega bucks to come over... hence the huge salary. there was talk amongst NP's about doing the PA course to earn more money and carry less responsiblity!

so not a new thing.. just not many of them around.

karenG · May 16, 2008

plenty of pa;s over here, although some nurses i know have applied for these position,s. nps also work with the physicians and their role seems to be comparable to a pa, but of course, theres no pay scale for hese positions over here, so all np's and pa,s can get differing pay rates. some nps dont earn as much as hospital nurses because its an "office" job.
maybe an american np will post and give us more info.

i know an np in virginia who has his own practice. he earns about $120k a year. not sure how that compared to nurses in the states but its more than most np's here!

ivanh3 · Jun 1, 2008

plenty of pa;s over here, although some nurses i know have applied for these position,s. nps also work with the physicians and their role seems to be comparable to a pa, but of course, theres no pay scale for hese positions over here, so all np's and pa,s can get differing pay rates. some nps dont earn as much as hospital nurses because its an "office" job.
maybe an american np will post and give us more info.

i am np student in the us and here is some info similar to what i have posted elsewhere on this site:

in the states i work with pas and nps quite often. i am in my first year of my masters for np . from an "end result" standpoint there is really very little difference in the two professions (at least how they are used in the us). both are considered "mid level" here, both require some oversight by a physician. (in the us the amount of oversight varies considerably for nps from state to state, pas work under physicians in all states), and both provide basically the same function. the patient would rarely be able to appreciate the difference. in fact most job listings for midlevels here looks something like "np/pa wanted for....". the starting pay scale here is almost identical for the two: about 75,000 dollars us/year.

to be quite honest, there really is no need for both professions. i honestly think we have pas here in the states because of the whole female/male dynamic that was much worse between docs and nurses when the various np/pa programs were being developed. i think that the predominately male physicians profession of the 1960s preferred the idea of a male midlevel which was who the pa profession was marketed to in the beginning. of course that is a crap notion, but i feel it is true. as women and the nursing profession in general have become more empowered the dynamic is different, and i don't think that those conditions exist to the same extent that they did. however, now we have these two professions that are 95 percent the same. i don't know if that dynamic exist in today's uk.

to the credit of pas here, they are moving towards a masters degree (just like nps weren't always masters degrees here). they have to have a lot sciences as prerequisite courses (more so than do nurses/nps here in the states) and they do almost triple the amount of clinical hours than do nps. of course nps have backgrounds as rns and so imho, i think it all evens out in the end. if that is the case, then why not just focus on the one midlevel np position and develop that to its fullest? but then as an rn and future np i am sure i am biased.

ivan

allnurses Guide · Jun 2, 2008

I know an NP in Virginia who has his own practice. he earns about $120K a year. not sure how that compared to nurses in the states but its more than most NP's here!

I have a friend who keeps suggesting that NP's in the UK should contract out and work independently much like the midwives do. As independent prescribers there is nothing to say that we have to work under the direction of a medic.

The thought of it scares me stupid , I like having the backup of my Doc

ZippyGBR, BSN, RN · Jun 3, 2008

PAs in the uk

interesting but ... unless they are registered with the NMC or HPC they can't be named on PGDs so cannot supply or adminster PoMs and unless a Nurse or Pharmacist couldn't access prescriber training ... so any 'prescription' they wrote for a PoM would not be a valid 'direction to administer'...

wembley1 · Jun 29, 2008

I agree, PA's have to prescribe under physician supervision, whereas NP's can prescribe independently. As has been shown in the USA, most jobs advertise for either a PA or NP. What irritates me about the UK is that they are advertising the PA course in nursing magazines and St Georges University is the latest to join in and will be offering a PA course. I think NP's need to be careful, protect their ground, but what I find interesting is as others mentioned, NP's only on bad 6, most would be band 7, 33-43k in London or similar, yet in Somerset, they are offering PA's with 2 years experience 40k plus benefits. I think the problem is the NP course, every few do an actual masters and a lot are termed a Bsc in nurse practitioner, I myself already have a bachelors so why would I do another? The education and protection of NP's needs to be looked at. In Australia, all NP course are at least PgD but most are masters level and the content is similar to the USA, fair amount of anatomy, pharmacology, diagnostic tests etc, whereas a lot of courses in the UK provide very basic levels of training. I think NP's as a group need to look at education and protection of their job roles, so PA's don't steal their ground. But I am still perplexed/confused, why use PA's in the UK why not just increase the scope of NP's. seems some NHS managers out their will always view nurses as just hand maidens, just good for basics. I hope NP's and nurses in general stand up....

allnurses Guide · Jun 29, 2008

I agree, PA's have to prescribe under physician supervision, whereas NP's can prescribe independently. As has been shown in the USA, most jobs advertise for either a PA or NP. What irritates me about the UK is that they are advertising the PA course in nursing magazines and St Georges University is the latest to join in and will be offering a PA course. I think NP's need to be careful, protect their ground, but what I find interesting is as others mentioned, NP's only on bad 6, most would be band 7, 33-43k in London or similar, yet in Somerset, they are offering PA's with 2 years experience 40k plus benefits. I think the problem is the NP course, every few do an actual masters and a lot are termed a Bsc in nurse practitioner, I myself already have a bachelors so why would I do another? The education and protection of NP's needs to be looked at. In Australia, all NP course are at least PgD but most are masters level and the content is similar to the USA, fair amount of anatomy, pharmacology, diagnostic tests etc, whereas a lot of courses in the UK provide very basic levels of training. I think NP's as a group need to look at education and protection of their job roles, so PA's don't steal their ground. But I am still perplexed/confused, why use PA's in the UK why not just increase the scope of NP's. seems some NHS managers out their will always view nurses as just hand maidens, just good for basics. I hope NP's and nurses in general stand up....

Before the NP's in the UK are able to stand thier ground and fight for improved pay there has to be clear definitions and regulation of the role of the NP which althought there are moves towards this it still hasn't happened.

I manage a team of NP's as part of my role and there is great diversity in qualification and ability. As a manager I have insisted that they all be BSc level and as a department we have now working towards the true definition of a NP but we are not there yet.

WIthin my trust again there is great variation, there are still many NP's that do not examine patients, without clear role definitions we are not going to be able to demonstrate that all NP's work to a level beyond standard practice so why would be warrant a pay of £40,000

DOn't get me wrong, I agree that those that are practicing at that level should have equal pay to the PA's but there is still no regulation for NP's and without that we are fighting a losing battle.

wembley1 · Jun 29, 2008

I agree that NP's need to be regulated. I suggest the UK has a good look at Australia, NP's are gradually being introduced, despite reluctance of doctors, and minimun standards are a postgraduate diploma or masters of nurse practitioner. The course content is similar to the USA, advanced pathophysiology, pharmacology, diagnostics etc. As you mentioned a lot of NP's hold variable qualifications and roles in the UK. I think minimum qualification should be postgraduate diploma or masters, the UK needs to do away with the Bsc nurse practitioner, as this really suggests it is an undergraduate qualification not a postgraduate. I already hold a Bsc in nursing, an undergraduate degree. I guess it stems from the diploma/degree option for nursing in the UK. What is a concern is that these PA's can be health science graduates, have no previous exposure to patients, come and do this 2 year course and then be ordering nurses around and getting paid 40k plus. What is funny is that they are advertising in nursing magazines for nurses to undertake the course, to become a PA, kind of an insult to NP's. The truly qualified NP's are a great asset and it is a shame to see a new group of health professionals coming into the NHS, I think they are not needed, why not just advance nurses or increase the roles of NP's. I hope NP's sit up and take notice, but, I doubt they will do so, problem with UK is that nurses have no voice, are weak and fail to complain.. Be interesting to see what happens with the PA movement, a short-term ploy or long-term?