Opinions/comments r/t unions,nursing shortage

James Huffman · Jan 7, 2004

jt notes:

"As far as the statement "be a professional" as an argument to avoid being a union, tens of thousands of other professionals are unionized - including doctors, dentists, college professors, lawyers (including the lawyers in Pennsylvania who just unionized with SEIU's professionals union). Nobody thinks of them as any less "professional" either."

I'm frankly baffled by this statement. There is some union representation among physicians in residency, but I'm not sure how (or for what purpose) private practice physicians could be unionized. Likewise dentists and lawyers. Unionization is plausible among employees, but not among private practice professionals.

And why would the SEIU (Service Employees' International Union) be representing lawyers? I checked their website (seiu.org) and there is no mention of this anywhere.

Jim Huffman, RN

kwagner_51 · Jan 7, 2004

Quote Jim Huffman~"There is some union representation among physicians in residency, but I'm not sure how (or for what purpose) private practice physicians could be unionized. Likewise dentists and lawyers. Unionization is plausible among employees, but not among private practice professionals. /End Quote

I found this on Doctor's Council FAQ Quote "IS IT LEGAL FOR DOCTORS TO ORGANIZE?

Federal law clearly permits salaried physicians (i.e. employees who receive a W-2 form from their employer) to be organized into a union. A union can negotiate wages, benefits, and working conditions, in addition to providing legal assistance to assure due process in instances of disputes with management.

Current anti-trust law prohibits unions from negotiating fees for private practice fee-for-service doctors." end quote

I didn't find anything on attorneys unions either; but based on the above quote, that could unionize if they wanted to as long as they are employees.

cwazycwissyRN, RN · Jan 7, 2004

Just some food for thought.

Our scrub techs are in a union at the facility I work at.

Their pay is all the same. The union does not take into account, the years of experience. Flat wage across the board. Needless to say the only techs were are able to get are fresh out of tech school. No one with experience is willing to take the postion at the pay scale they are offered.

With that being what I see as union......makes me think twice about it.

cwazycwissyRN, RN · Jan 7, 2004

reread my post ......need to clarify. Starting......wage is the same across the board. NEW techs are all started at the same wage regardless of experience.

allnurses Guide · Jan 7, 2004

I've weighed in here before and would never join a union.

5 years ago there was a union interested in representing nursing staff and our hospital did NOT threaten us while we were looking into it. We were allowed to meet and ask questions with the union reps. We voted it down by a majority.

I can stand up for myself and say no to situations which are dangerous or unprofessional.

The comment made about unions existing now to protect the laziest and most incompetent from losing their job is right on the money in my experience.

We have the right to join a union already. I just choose not to join a union and would not work at a hospital where I was forced to join in order to work. In fact, no one can force any of us to do anything. You can always find another job.

steph

kwagner_51 · Jan 7, 2004

Originally posted by cwazycwissyRN
Just some food for thought.
Our scrub techs are in a union at the facility I work at.
Their pay is all the same. The union does not take into account, the years of experience. Flat wage across the board. Needless to say the only techs were are able to get are fresh out of tech school. No one with experience is willing to take the postion at the pay scale they are offered.
With that being what I see as union......makes me think twice about it.

This really bugs me. My husband was the Chief Union Steward where he works. He kept trying to tell the people that the union isn't something that sits in a corner until you need it; it is EACH AND EVERY WORKER who is a member of that union.

These are some things the union accoplished while he was Chief Steward:

1. COMPANY paid, dental, visual and major medical. [We had MM, before the last contract.]

2. ABSOLUTELY NO Co Pay on insurance.

3. Shift preference...which means that if you like working 3-11 , but the co. switched you to 11-7, you could force someone else to take the 11-7 shift. This one is based on senority.

If the Company had had their way, we would be paying for everything!! Also, the Co. got mad because they wanted the 4th of July off [and finally got it]; so for Christmas and New Year's the plant was scheduled right up to Christmas Eve. Some [my husband included] had to work Christmas Afternoon.

My husband works in a production bakery. When the GM found out about the scheduling, he through a fit. NO OTHER bakery was open...just us!!

Anyway, we need to remember that WE are the union, if we decide to join one. That means going to union meetings, speaking up when we see problems, writing down ways the union is/isn't working and coming up with ways to improve the union. You only get out as much as you put in!!

fergus51 · Jan 7, 2004

I will not work non-union. Been there, done that, and have no desire to repeat the experience. I have seen enough garbage tactics from management in non-union places and the nurses took it, cause they had no real alternative. During the 90s, hospitals in Canada were cutting nursing jobs. One non-union hospital decided they could save themselves money by firing all the senior staff and keeping the new grads who were at the bottom of the payscale. I don't like the idea of working in a place for years and then being sent out to pasture because I am a little too expensive. I think seniority should count for something. I also didn't like that in a non-union shop, there is often no standard way to resolve disputes with employers. It often comes down to "you can always quit and work elsewhere". IF nurses could all get together and stand up for themselves without a union, I -would work in a non-union facility. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening on a large scale.

llg, PhD, RN · Jan 7, 2004

I think this thread is beginning to illustrate a fundamental truth:

It's the specifics of the situation and the qualities of the people involved that determine whether unionization is a good thing or not.

Some of us have had very bad experiences with specific employers and have seen some of the benefits a union can bring. Those people emphasize the positive aspects of unionization.

Others of us have had some very bad experiences with unions and have worked for some very good employers in non-unionized hospitals. Those people are wary of unionization and would prefer to fight their own battles.

Neither group is totally right or wrong. They have simply experienced different aspects of a very complex world.

What would be WRONG is for anyone to assume that their individual, personal experience in a limited number settings is sufficient to answer the question in and of itself.

llg

allnurses Guide · Jan 7, 2004

Originally posted by llg
I think this thread is beginning to illustrate a fundamental truth:

It's the specifics of the situation and the qualities of the people involved that determine whether unionization is a good thing or not.

Some of us have had very bad experiences with specific employers and have seen some of the benefits a union can bring. Those people emphasize the positive aspects of unionization.

Others of us have had some very bad experiences with unions and have worked for some very good employers in non-unionized hospitals. Those people are wary of unionization and would prefer to fight their own battles.

Neither group is totally right or wrong. They have simply experienced different aspects of a very complex world.

What would be WRONG is for anyone to assume that their individual, personal experience in a limited number settings is sufficient to answer the question in and of itself.

llg

Good points! Which is why we will never solve this problem with a one-size fits all solution.

Regarding Fergus's point about the senior and more expensive emloyees being fired, some of the criticism has to be leveled at the feet of the inexperienced new and less expensive grads who took jobs at such a place. For me, it still comes down to individual responsibility. I would not work for a facility that treated its employees so disrespectfully.

Maybe the problem is with individual selfishness.

steph

Darla · Jan 7, 2004

thanks for the replies so far! unions do have pros and cons . i believe the pros otweigh the cons especially when healthcare workers can be terminated without warning and especially if one is a whistleblower about unsafe patient care and/or incompetent staff. also, having a contract would protect our wages,benefits,etc. my husband works as an electrician for our local water authority and the bluecollar workers are unionized. there are cons but when he tells me about all the positive aspects and i see it for myself i think it's a shame that those of us who care for others are treated so unjustly. i agree that caregivers need to support one another but the sad truth is when we do our jobs are at risk. i look forward to more replies. darla

-jt · Jan 8, 2004

beg to differ. Private physicians can also be employed on staff at hospitals and may also be employed by their local counties. Interns and residents have their own large union - the Committee of Interns and Residents - the largest housestaff physician union in the nation. But these other doctors are not interns or residents. And they are unionizing for the same reasons we are. Heres just a sample of all the info that is out there:

In the nation's largest election for physicians in 18 years, nearly 800 physicians employed by the Los Angeles County voted overwhelmingly to join the Union of American Physicians and Dentists (UAPD), an Oakland-based affiliate of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME). With the victory, the UAPD boosted its membership to 6,000 doctors, making it the nation's largest union of post-residency physicians. .....

http://www.afscme.org/press/1999/pr990528.htm>>

Nearly two years after union discussions started in Nashville, a group of about 60 private practice physicians there joined the Federation of Physicians and Dentists in October. Their decision is part of a nationwide trend that has seen the number of physicians who turned to unions for help grow by about 250% in three years. Union leaders and AMA executives estimate that as many as 45,000 to 47,000 doctors belong to unions now. That's up from an estimated 12,000 to 14,000 who belonged in 1997.....>>

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2000/11/27/prl21127.htm

Fifty physicians and dentists who work for San Joaquin County, Calif., voted 24-17 in August to let the Union of American Physicians and Dentists represent them in negotiations. The doctors voted to unionize because the county had not given them a pay raise in several years, and because the pension plans and other benefits are inadequate......>>

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2001/09/03/prbf0903.htm

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http://www.aapnj.org/Newsletter/Volume23.3/Unions.html_

As New Jersey physicians grow angrier over managed care, many have signed up with unions to represent their grievances._ Physicians in New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, and at least 10 other states are moving to unionize in an effort to be recognized as independent contractors......Nationally, 39,000 to 45,000 physicians belong to unions-- about six percent of the nation's doctors. In New Jersey, 650 physicians recently formed with the United Food and Commercial Workers local 56......As managed care interferes more and more with care of patients, physicians will continue to seek legitimate ways to bargain with payers for better patient service......>>

http://www.aapnj.org/Newsletter/Volume23.3/Unions.html

.....the first private lawyers to unionize in Arizona ... a group of disgruntled lawyers in Arizona have unionized over pay and working conditions, designating the TEAMSTERS as their collective bargaining unit,"....... http://www.law.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/View&c=LawArticle&cid=1048518259019&t=LawArticle.

http://www.azcentral.com/abgnews/articles/0327union27.html

Assistant district attorneys and assistant public defenders in Milton, Pa joined TEAMSTERS Local 764 in October 2001 as a way to bring their salaries in line with other counties.....>

http://www.teamster.org/03news/hn_030513_2.htm

http://www.aflcio.org/aboutaflcio/wip/

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http://www.ndaseiu.com/aboutndaseiu.htm

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http://www.opeiu.org/html/about_us.html

Not that it should make a difference. Theyre all still considered professionals, just as unionized RNs should be.

-jt · Jan 8, 2004

according to an article by one doctor, heres a good reason:

......Doctors in private practice would violate antitrust laws if they tried themselves, as a group, to negotiate fees with a managed-care plan. BUT by affiliating with unions under the AFL-CIO, they can increase their bargaining power with health maintenance organizations (HMOs).

Unions have a powerful tool: They can threaten to drop an HMO from their health plans, if it doesn't cooperate with unionized doctors...

Groups of optometrists in Pennsylvania have unionized; so have neurosurgeons in Florida, specialists in Arizona, and physicians in other states. Podiatrists have formed a national guild. San Francisco microsurgeon Greg Buncke belongs to the oldest independent labor group for doctors, the Union of American Physicians and Dentists. Three years ago, members banded together in California to negotiate contracts with HMOs. "It's much easier for a large group, a community voice of physicians, to speak on our behalf," he said.

His father Henry, also a microsurgeon, was one of the union's founding members in the early 1970s. "There was a lot of resistance, because physicians, as professionals, didn't think they should belong to a union," the elder Buncke said. "Now we realize we need all the support and representation we can get."

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9712/25/docs.unions/ >>>