Opinion vs. legality -- a rant

[PetiteOpRN]

This is prompted by another thread in which a student was admonished for actively participating in patient care during surgery.

One member responded that it is illegal for unlicensed personnel to pass instruments, and was a patient safety issue.

Fact: Some states require certification for people who pass instruments in surgery (surgical technologists). But MANY states (mine included) require no license or certification whatsoever.

This member posted, ad nauseum, that this was illegal: "It NOT legal! Period! The unliscenced people present pose a risk to patient safety."

I understand that you are of the opinion that it is not in the best interest of the patient to have students participate in their care, but it is legal. It is not necessary for you to try and convince us that your opinion is the law for us to respect it as a valid opinion. Many of the other members of this forum are thrilled to have students who are enthusiastic enough to want to actively participate in patient care.

/rant

[dthfytr, ADN, LPN, RN, EMT-B, EMT-I]

Great rant! Feel better? You are correct of course. I've had some postings bite me from behind, and learned the hard way that there's a flaw in allnurses.com. Posts don't show the nationality of the poster automatically. I've had people in Canada and Australia correct me in that something is done much different in their country. What might be a correct answer in my state or country is very wrong in another state or country. Think I'll suggest they include a flag or some other symbol with the poster's information so we can remember that when we post other countries may not realize that, for instance, everybody drives in the middle of the road in Lower Slobovia (a trauma nurses dream!). Thanks:up:

[PetiteOpRN]

Both myself and the other poster are in the US.

Regardless, the poster implies that having students (medical students, nursing students, etc) participate in patient care is illegal. I can't imagine a state or country where that is true.

[dthfytr, ADN, LPN, RN, EMT-B, EMT-I]

Both myself and the other poster are in the US.

Regardless, the poster implies that having students (medical students, nursing students, etc) participate in patient care is illegal. I can't imagine a state or country where that is true.

I agree with you and the poster. Apparently somebody believes it's illegal for unlicensed people to pass instruments in surgery. I wish there were some way to talk directly to that person to see if they are ill informed, or actually correct in their locality. Apparently there's a knowledge defecit somewhere, and someone's missing a learning opportunity. Not trying to start a fight.

[regularRN]

As a student I passed instruments during surgery - in fact it was encouraged. How else can one learn? Of course, I was supervised and the surgeon was quick to comment if it was the wrong instrument, just like he/she would with a licensed RN.

[sirI, MSN, APRN, NP]

Think I'll suggest they include a flag or some other symbol with the poster's information so we can remember that when we post other countries may not realize that, for instance, everybody drives in the middle of the road in Lower Slobovia (a trauma nurses dream!). Thanks:up:

We have that now.

Go to, "My Account". Scroll to, "Edit Personal Info". Then, scroll to "Country" and select a flag of your country.

:)

[Jolie, BSN]

Both myself and the other poster are in the US.

Regardless, the poster implies that having students (medical students, nursing students, etc) participate in patient care is illegal. I can't imagine a state or country where that is true.

That poster did not limit herself to declaring the illegality of a student scrubbing in surgery. She went on to state that students were not legally allowed to participate in patient care of any type, and were only to observe.

I'd love to know where that is the case, so I can avoid getting sick there. Imagine a newly licensed RN who has never touched a patient!

[carolmaccas66, BSN, RN]

When I did my 5 week OR rotation, we all worked as scrub & scout nurses. I did actually query this (I got a withering answer and put-you-down looks though cos I was a mere student), & was told it is legal under the direction of an RN. Since there was a CN & CNS/CNC in the OR it is perfectly OK.

[jjjoy, LPN]

That poster did not limit herself to declaring the illegality of a student scrubbing in surgery. She went on to state that students were not legally allowed to participate in patient care of any type, and were only to observe.

I'd love to know where that is the case, so I can avoid getting sick there. Imagine a newly licensed RN who has never touched a patient!

I think some facilities' legal advisors may be so afraid of liability issues that they *do* discourage students from participating much and that *is* leading to newly licensed RNs with very limited hands-on patient care experience who have an enormous gap transitioning from student who can't do much more than observe to regular staff RN with the same job description, same level of responsibility as a nurse with years of experience.

[GHGoonette, BSN, RN]

We have that now.

Go to, "My Account". Scroll to, "Edit Personal Info". Then, scroll to "Country" and select a flag of your country.

:)

Tried, but that's not the South African flag that shows up; not sure which SA that is on the list, but it ain't mine :)

Here, a student (or, for that matter any unqualified nurse) may scrub for a case, provided:

1: He/she feels competent to do so and

2: A suitably qualified RN is available to take over at need and

3: The surgeon is comfortable with the arrangement.

While it is not common practice for a student to take the table, our laws do allow that leeway, otherwise how would they learn?

[dthfytr, ADN, LPN, RN, EMT-B, EMT-I]

We have that now.

Go to, "My Account". Scroll to, "Edit Personal Info". Then, scroll to "Country" and select a flag of your country.

:)

Thank you for correcting me. Wish it were the default.

[wooh, BSN, RN]

I think some facilities' legal advisors may be so afraid of liability issues that they *do* discourage students from participating much and that *is* leading to newly licensed RNs with very limited hands-on patient care experience who have an enormous gap transitioning from student who can't do much more than observe to regular staff RN with the same job description, same level of responsibility as a nurse with years of experience.

I remember back in nursing school, we were practically forbidden to go near patients in psych (as they were worried about liability for our safety) and in L&D (as it's so crazy liability wise.)

I get annoyed with the very authoritative, "You absolutely MUST HAVE.." responses as it's often based on that poster's particular hospital policy, or their state's practice acts. There are so very few hard and fast rules in nursing and/or medicine. As the OP said, it's not just localities, but my hospital has different policies on different units.