I am curious to know if you would be offended, if at church on Sunday your Pastor got up and said a prayer for Church Mice?
I mean he prayed that the mice be strengthened and given the ability to carry out their mousey duties and to eventually render the Church unusable, so that the Parisheners would finally have to pony up the dough to pay for a new Church.
ok I am kidding here is the original post but hey if you are just now reading this thread there have been many twists and turns and I no longer say a prayer over the deceased and yes largely due to many of the points made in this thread. Also NO i would not be offended if anyone of any belief Satanist, TO Catholic said prayers or whipered chants or whatever in my ear that said it was and is an interesting thread but please read about 5-10 of the current posts prior to posting
Now The
ORIGNAL POST
I am curious to know if you would be offended, after death if someone were to say a prayer over you.
I would really like to hear from as many Agnostic or Atheist as possible.
I recently began saying a prayer over anyone that dies in my presence. Many times I do not know if the person had a religious preference or not. I am curious to know if people would be offended if they knew someone was going to pray over them when they die.
here is the prayer
Dear Lord not our will but yours. Into thine hands we commend the spirit of this peaceful child of God. Prepare a place for him/her Now in Your Heavenly Kingdom![/Quote]
And, I personally do pray if a patient passes. But, my prayer is more an inner dialogue between me and God... "God, I pray that this person was able to love and be loved, to feel compassion, and to look back on their life and smile." I don't believe that praying "for" someone who has passed away does much for their soul at that point (but, I understand that some have a differing opinion and I respect that). My prayer is more of a well wish over their life, and most of all that in the end, they were satisfied with themselves. But, once again, it's an inner dialogue between me and God.
I don't feel it is really appropriate to pray that outloud ~ that's the chaplain's job, not mine. JMHO.
I am with HisHands. When I have a patient that dies, I say a silent prayer for the patient. More so, I say a silent prayer for the family, for God to give them strength, love, and peace. I do not subject a patient or a patient's family to my views or beliefs. Rather, I suppport them in any way I can. If I can't I do my best to find someone more suited to than me.
My 1st hubby was Indian, one of my best friends is Indian, and I know the culture. This sounds like a very traditional and observant Hindu family, and for that nurse to pray out loud, asking God and directing God to do this or that with her spirit, likely caused great consternation to the son, as it is his duty, as the eldest son, to make sure all is properly done for the deceased mother to be able to be reincarnated. Someone else going there in the middle of rituals is kind of like messing up their religious tasks in dealing with her spirit and her body. Even if the family had been much less observant hindus, they may have remained silent about this nurse doing this, but they would be upset nonetheless.
Every single thing that is done this ritual(and most religious rituals) are deeply meaningful, and intensely important.
I am sure that they would not mind silent prayer, as I have done when I attended a funeral ceremony in India.
As an atheist I would be unhappy for anyone to project their religious beliefs into my space whether I am alive or dead. I think that if you feel the need to say a prayer do it silently. I have never sought consolation in religion and at that stage I will certainly be beyond consolation anyway!
Freedom of religion, if it is going to apply to everyone, also requires freedom from religion. We do not truly have the freedom to practice our religious beliefs, including non-belief, if we are also required to adhere to any of the religious beliefs or rules of others. Freedom from religion is the freedom from the rules and dogmas of other people's religious beliefs so that we can be free to follow the demands of our own conscience, whether they take a religious form or not.
"At the heart of liberty is the right to define one's own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life."
~ United States Supreme Court
I would like to point out part of your statement, "if we are also required to adhere to any of the religious beliefs or rules of others. " Never is anyone "required" to adhere. Just because someone witnesses someone practicing a religeous rite, or wearing of a symbol in no way reflects participation. If the mere site or sound of religeon is offensive then the problem goes much deeper. One of our Jewish nurses posted information on the celebration of Ramadon in the nurses station. Did I feel violated? NO, as she does not feel offended when I wear my cross. People who preach tolerance need to practice what they preach, otherwise it is nothing but plain hypocrisy. Tolerance vs. Abstinance...I vote for tolerance.
As for saying prayer, I do, silently. I agree it is for myself and the family. At death, I believe the eternal fate of that person is fixed with the last breath they take.
Exactly!! You're saying the prayer for what you believe, if the person doesn't believe in it, then what's the harm? It's for your own beliefs.
Yeah, I guess there's no real objective harm thats really being done, but, jesus, its THEIR dead body you're praying over, isn't it?
I don't know about you but that kind of feels like a violation to me even though the person isn't touching me or anything. I mean, think of someone talking bad about someone else. That person says something bad about someone else for his own sake, not really for the other person. And if someone has something negative to say about someone else, we all know that comment reflects more on the person who is saying it and not the person who is actually being talked about, right? But, it still can be offensive to the person who is bad-mouthed and it still can hurt and feel like a violation, can't it?
I mean, I don't think its a big deal in my case but if someone else feels like it is a violation and it hurts them, I think we should believe them when they say its harmful to them and not do it, even if "you're really doing it for yourself and not them".
It hurts a lot when you feel you're being associated with something that you explicitly did not want to be associated with. If you do not understand this kind of non-explicit psychological pain, maybe you can relate it to being forcably raped or violated in another manner and try to beleive that the pain of having someone do something to you after you're dead that you did not want done can be as painful as an actual physical violation. A lot of people might say I am being overdramatic or blowing things out of proportion but I beleive it can be that painful and destructive for a person.
I am wondering how many nurses here would go ahead and do this to a patient, using the justification that "Its really for me, not for them at all". I know I can't really change your beliefs if you really don't believe that it'd be painful for another person so I won't argue with any of you if you say that it isn't, but I'd like to know so feel free to go ahead and say it if you would do this.
I wouldn't have a problem with this since I would be dead but members of my family might. While I have no issues with prayer I do respect others rights NOT to be subjected to it. I would assume that you would ask their permission before praying and let those that wish to leave do so. Also, if I had any reservations about it and my family voiced them, I DO hope you are respecting of that as well.:)
Freedom of expression must include the opportunty to share ones faith as that is a critical tenet for some religions.
Separation between church and state never applies in health care as we do have a responsibility to support a patient's spiritual needs as well as phycial, emotional and educaitonal needs. Our best way to meet the spiritual needs is to work with the patient's beliefs and if invited share our ideas.
Have you seene the studies that show the patient outcomes improved even when they did not know someone was praying for them? Why would we not be allowed to pray?
Tolerance is being respectful of others expression, NOT controlling them by demanding silence because I choose to be offended. I can accept anyone who is praying for me, because by definition prayer is a good will gesture.
It hurts a lot when you feel you're being associated with something that you explicitly did not want to be associated with. If you do not understand this kind of non-explicit psychological pain, maybe you can relate it to being forcably raped or violated in another manner and try to beleive that the pain of having someone do something to you after you're dead that you did not want done can be as painful as an actual physical violation. A lot of people might say I am being overdramatic or blowing things out of proportion but I beleive it can be that painful and destructive for a person.
"...Overdramatic and blowing things out of proportion..." is about the only thing I believe in that statement. Prayer the same as rape? Talk about comparing apples to oranges. If a person is that concerned about the action of others, s/he is bound to live a life of strife.
Well your obviously focusing on bereavement which is important for grieving relatives, and is not fully covered by some sects.
In Christianity some Churches do not deal with death properly and it is just swept under the table. Death is about rememberance and anyone who has been to Yad Vashem in Jeruslem, the Jewish museum to the holocaust, will know that rememberance is important. The Catholics in general allow masses to be said for dead people, so in part help families in their grieving process. The Church of England sweep death under the table and I guess society as a whole covers it over.
In countries like the Philippines ever All Souls Day families gather at the graves of loved ones to say a prayer. Its such a pity that Halloween has become such a commercial load of baloney, and gathering at the grave side is not now practised.
Death will occur to us all and a prayer said over a dead person can help both the one who has said the prayer and the onlookers.
Helping people die in dignity is a nursing duty. The choice of words after death couild upset a member of the family - nurses should understand the bereavement process.
Each of us, forum members may have a different paradigm of death, however in Christianity we say, 'Oh death where is your sting? The sting of death is Victory in Christ Jesus' :)
I don't understand why this is even an issue if it is said silently. I would be appalled if someone took it upon themselves to say a prayer for me aloud without permission. In my death the family would need to give permission. I am a practicing Episcopalian but would never project my beliefs on anyone at any time. I would expect the same respect in return......
HisHands, ASN, RN
177 Posts
Personally I wouldn't be offended.
And, I personally do pray if a patient passes. But, my prayer is more an inner dialogue between me and God... "God, I pray that this person was able to love and be loved, to feel compassion, and to look back on their life and smile." I don't believe that praying "for" someone who has passed away does much for their soul at that point (but, I understand that some have a differing opinion and I respect that). My prayer is more of a well wish over their life, and most of all that in the end, they were satisfied with themselves. But, once again, it's an inner dialogue between me and God.
I don't feel it is really appropriate to pray that outloud ~ that's the chaplain's job, not mine. JMHO.