Nursing Pay - Why So Low?

tntrn, ASN, RN · Oct 23, 2003

Originally posted by llg
Does that mean that you never use research to guide your practice? Does that mean you have no respect for researchers and do not support a researched body of knowledge as the basis for professional practice?

Of course not. Research is very important, but a research report often refutes another research report, which tells me that they must have been set up differently. The first thing my statistics professor said to our class was " You can prove anything you want statistically. Just depends on how you set it up."

Research, IMHO, is just another tool, not the gospel. I read research and then take a look around my own work setting to see how it pans out. Sometimes, it pans out dead on. But sometimes, it's not even close.

llg, PhD, RN · Oct 23, 2003

Originally posted by tntrn
Of course not.

That's what I thought. .... but when people "bash" this study (or any study) with general statements that denigrate research or by making generalizations based on their personal experiences, it gives an "unprofessional" and/or "unscholarly" impression of nursing. It sounds as if the speaker does not respect respect the research process -- even if, in fact, they do.

When nurses want to raise concerns about a particular research study, they should point out their specific concerns about the methodology or whatever is of concern. Their criticism should demonstrate that they have actually read the study and understand it. If their criticism does not reflect a decent understanding of the particular study, it appears as if they are just "running off at the mouth" and are not knowledgable about the study and/or not knowledgable about the research process in general. Such comments make our profession look bad and help to justify our low standing among the other professions.

llg

tntrn, ASN, RN · Oct 23, 2003

One of my pet peeves is having those who've only read about doing something tell those who really do it how we should be doing it, instead of asking us what we do, what works and what doesn't work. This includes the architect who designed our new unit, the managements of large companies, and the RN researchers who may or may not have ever done any direct patient care. Therefore, to accept a research study as total truth simply it is research and has followed the research rules seems like folly to me. In addition, if we wait a week, a month, or a year, another study will be done, published and uh-oh, we have to revise our whole way of thinking again. No thanks. I prefer to do what really works.

I will stand by my statement that experience is the best teacher, not the kind or number of capital letters you have behind your name.

Chrislynn2003 · Oct 23, 2003

Originally posted by CougRN
Personally I don't think nursing pay is low to begin with. When you graduate and start out at 40,000$ a year or more that is a pretty living for a single person. The problem is that pay doesn't go up very much. We top out too soon and the top pay isn't enough to support a family with one income. I've been working as a nurse for over a year and make about 50,000$ a year now with about one extra shift a month. It's nice for now but I know I'm going to have to go for my master's to earn a better living. That's just my opinion.

At 23 years old and single, nursing beingmy first carreer, I am starting out at 42,000/yr. That is great money for just working day shift (7:30-4). It beats making 10/hr being a tech. And also where I work, nurses do not top out on their salary that quickly. I figure that if i marry, that will be plenty of money to raise a family on. Most graduates are lucky if they even get a job after college in some majors. I consider myself lucky and fortunate, not a selfish money making fool.

Chrislynn2003 · Oct 23, 2003

Originally posted by km rn
Government statistics regarding nursing salaries. October 2002

Nursing salaries overall have remained STAGNANT in the past 10 years.

Nurse's actual earnings have increased steadily from 1983 - 2002 BUT "real earnings" have been FLAT since 1991.

(real earnings = money available after adjusting for inflation)

Average Annual Salaries of RNs versus "Real Earnings"

1984 annual salary = 25, 064 Real Earnings = 22, 063

1990 annual salary = 29, 588 Real Earnings = 23,861

1995 annual salary = 35,146 Real Earnings = 23,711

No elementary school teacher in my state makes more than nurses. Most make around upper 20,000's and nurses start out at 42,000 in hospital. That report doesn't include mystate

2001 annual salary = 41, 060 Real Earnings = 23, 409.

Futhermore....much of a nurse's wage growth takes place early and TAPERS off with time.

New grad
Nurse 5 years experience: makes 15 to 17% more than newgrad.
Nurse 15 - 20 years experience: 16 to 20% more than new grad.

Secretary Thompson points out that nurses' salaries are actually BEHIND those of another perceived low income group - elementary school teachers. Nurses' salaries are falling futher behind each survey period.

1984 Elementary school teacher = 25,000
1984 Nurse = 19,000 (4,400 less per year)

2001 Elementary school teacher = 54,800
2001 Nurse = 41,000 (13,800 less per year)

Now please don't make this into a teachers versus nurse war - both groups have difficult jobs. However, I believe the teachers have done a much better job educating the public about their salary issues.

Source: Government Statistics regarding Nursing Salaries October 2002 Contemporary Long Term Care

In addition, the salary for a nurse varies significantly dependent on area of country and area of practice (hospital versus non-acute).

I get very frustrated when I hear that nurse get very high wages - it needs to put into the right context.

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · Oct 23, 2003

I agree with many postings on this thread. And... I am open to the study that states the pts of BSN nurses have higher survival rates, than those of ADN or diploma nurses. (I am an ADN RN).

However, I think this needs to be looked at more in depth.

The study compared survival rates of pts at hospitals who utilize all or mostly BSN nurses to those that do not.

Could it be that perhaps the hospitals that have all BSNs also have other major difference?

Perhaps doc abuse of nurses is not tolerated, so that nurses are not intimidated out of calling docs when needed. Perhaps these hospitals have better staffing ratios, are better equipped.

Maybe pharmacy and nursing depts have a working relationship and collaborate on problems to get them addressed.

May be these hospitals just have a generally more pro-nurse environment.

I would like to see the reasons behind the studie's findings.

Lalage · Oct 23, 2003

Question: why are the wages for nurses in the United States so different from state to state, and hospital to hospital? I'm a fairly new grad and last year I made just under $45 000 (before tax) in Canada.

A lot of my classmates went to the United States to work, where they are making significantly more than me...for most of the 1990's in Canada, many new nursing grads left the country for the United States because of the better pay.

But after reading this thread, I'm wondering how this could be true? How do pay scales work in the States? In each province, the pay scale in each hospital is the same (goverened by a provincial union). Nursing homes and public heath do pay different pay scales, but all hospitals are pretty much on the same scale. We could be paid better, but right now I make more than any of my other friends with undergrad degrees in subjects other than nursing.

llg, PhD, RN · Oct 23, 2003

Originally posted by Hellllllo Nurse
I agree with many posting on this thread. And... I am open to the study that states the pts of BSN nurses have higher survival rates, than those of ADN or diploma nurses. (I am an ADN RN).
However, I think this needs to be looked at more in depth.

Ahhhh... now we are talking. Thanks for the post. All I am saying is that we shouldn't jump all over this study without exploring the topic in more depth. I realize that this is not the right thread to discuss this study in detail, but it makes for a good example. We need more nurses (like you) who read such a study and think about the content as part of an exploration of a broader topic -- and not immediately jump to any conclusions.

We need more nurses to be knowledgable enough to distinguish between "good research" and "bad research" and to have a spirit of openness and the love of discovery to lead the development and utilization of new knowledge. To bash those who "have lots of letters behind their names" simply because they have furthered their educations and gained scholarly knowledge to augment their clinical experience does not enhance the nursing profession. It moves us a step backward.

Too many nurses are simply jumping all over this study because they don't like what they THINK it MIGHT be saying. If they would actually explore it indepth, as you are doing, they might find that it is not as negative towards the different levels of education as they fear. It a CORRELATION study, not a study of CAUSATION for heaven's sake! People need to understand the difference.

Coming back to the original topic of this thread ... as a profession, we give people the wrong impression when we don't show respect for legitimate scholarship. It is one of the reasons our compensation is so low. People see that and conclude that nurses are really not "up there in the big leagues" with the other professions.

... and I teach classes on "experiential learning." I am all for "learning by experience." It's just that I respect ALL kinds of learning, not just one kind. I know that both "book learning" and "experiential learning" are valuable IF DONE CORRECTLY!

llg

SmilingBluEyes · Oct 23, 2003

Riddle for ya:

In what world would a brand spankin' new grad be worth NEARLY what a 20-year veteran is in the same career????

Bet no one is stumped.

NURSING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(and we wonder why experienced nurses become disgusted and leave????)

any questions?

The stats above speak loudly and clearly why many nurses are unhappy with their wages. It's not too hard to see why there is a false shortage. People don't choose to break their backs and wade in ever-increasing litigious environments for what are poor pay increases across the board over 25-30 years.

skaosiris · Oct 23, 2003

Just a few cents about this subject. I am a male nursing assistant and a medical assistant and as usual, I have an opinion:rolleyes: I agree with much that is written here and I think it applies to other professions as well (such as social work, teaching, police work, etc). No one in corporate america sees spending money on peple as lucrative--they don't think it generates more money nor provides many if any ways for someone to cut in on the action. The fact that these services are tremendously helpful and needed for our citizens is, ofcourse, irrelevant to them. There are nursing shortages everywhere, but there is no shortage of salesman on a car lot. Who can make a decent living as a high school teacher? Hardly anyone, but if you want to become a pro ball player (please fill in the desired specific sport), then you too can own a million-dollar home. Unfortunately, this says alot about our general society as well--many people want to spend money only on tangible and fun things, not things that are necessary or require effort, work, or time. Okay, I'll jump of my soap box now. Thanx,

Randy

CougRN · Oct 24, 2003

Originally posted by Chrislynn2003
At 23 years old and single, nursing beingmy first carreer, I am starting out at 42,000/yr. That is great money for just working day shift (7:30-4). It beats making 10/hr being a tech. And also where I work, nurses do not top out on their salary that quickly. I figure that if i marry, that will be plenty of money to raise a family on. Most graduates are lucky if they even get a job after college in some majors. I consider myself lucky and fortunate, not a selfish money making fool.

That's what I was trying to say. It's nice for now but not secure enough for the future. I don't appreciate being called a fool either for wanting a better life. I know that I can make more money in nursing and that is what I plan to do. That doesn't make me selfish either.

pmchap · Oct 24, 2003

So many things have been brought up its hard to know where to start. I work in Australia for one, so I will mention australian nurses wages. two - I am also a qualified teacher and have a wife who is a teacher.

I am paid the to level of a nurses salary (54,500 AUS) base rate. I work permanent nights and most weekend which brings my base up to about 75,000 with penalties, throw in an average one overtime shift per fortnight and I am making about 85,000.

My wife is one level of a senoir teachers wage and is making just under 60,000.

Hours - I work 40 normal hours plus 10 overtime hours = 50 hours per week, my wife works 8-3 every day at school (35 hrs) plus an average 3 hours a day at home = 50 hours all up

I would consider that we are on a very comparable wage.

Both teachers and nurses have both recieved pretty good wage rises in the last few years so its unlikely that we will see many more, the worry to me is that I have a brother with no university training making 100,000 plus in the IT industry. I save lives and my wife helps develop the next generation and yet society values us less than a computer programmer? it just doesnt make sense...