Emergency Nurse Relief Act 2009- Update - page 7

Read what is being said by American Lawyers about US Nurses, basically we are uneducated, not dedicated, and need the help of foreign nurses to function. American nurses especially ADN prepared... Read More

  1. by   Ginger's Mom
    Quote from Hushdawg
    You are full of xenophobic comments lately aren't you?

    I'm really surprised at your comments lately.. I didn't think you would be the type to talk this way.

    While it is true that PH government and low-income hospitals are set at a much lower standard than US hospitals, there are many that are closer to US standard.

    That being said, the nurses here are still educated in modern techniques and methods. Nurses are educated with the understanding that most will be going abroad to US, Australia, NZ and Middle Eastern countries.

    You should also be aware that a very large number of PH nurses are working in hospitals in the Mid-East that are at or above US standards of healthcare. These nurses are the ones who are still trying to get to the USA.

    It is very common for a nurse to get her license in the USA and then go to work in the Mid-East to get experience while waiting for visa applications and job offers in the USA.

    In many ways this multicultural training scenario is what makes Pinoy nurses so attractive to US hospitals.
    You keep saying Pinoy nurses are so attractive to US Hospitals. That has not been my experience, in the 1990's many local hospitals tried experimental programs which failed miserably. In my area I have not seen an imported ( not a Pinoy nurse with lots of experience here in the USA) Pinoy nurse hired.

    In another post, you stated the hospitals love Asian nurses since they have great customer service skills. My not scientific experience has been that the patients complain more. Recently, though, when I read an article that talks about using a group of foreign nurses in a large amount, I do go to hospital compare and look at the nursing measures, every time I do this I see these hospitals are below the national average for patient satisfaction.

    As far as my comments I am only repeating what I have read here on this board, how there are no disposable gloves, the poor patient nurse ratio, the re use of needles with out autoclaving, the lack of IV therapy training. The nurses are not exposed to computer charting and modern methods of medication administration. The use of volunteer nursing, instructors with the lack of clinical experience, lack of clinical assessment tools ( perform by doctors). Are you saying all the posts by these nurses are false?

    Is the Canadian government misinformed when they imported nurses ( the cream of the crop) and once carefully evaluated they are only qualified at the LPN level?

    So should I discard my observations, my personal, the stats ( the lack of many foreign nurses being able to pass the NCLEX), the posts here, the news I read in the paper or believe immigration lawyers and posters like you.

    The issue is there are been an explosion of Pinoy nurse graduates who have not been able to come to the USA since retrogression and many are not working as nurses, how do you think they can gain employment as time ticks on.

    I do believe you are helping nurses in the Philippines, but the issue is that they are educating nurses to export them without consulting the countries they are exporting them to.

    My last issue, I think there are good to great people in even culture, I find it offensive for you to state that Asian nurses have better customer service skills, my experience as a nurse and a patient is that they are the same as any nurse, I find that an offensive comment.
  2. by   Hushdawg
    Quote from Alexk49
    So should I discard my observations, my personal, the stats ( the lack of many foreign nurses being able to pass the NCLEX), the posts here, the news I read in the paper or believe immigration lawyers and posters like you.
    No, you should not discard observations and statistics, but you should put them in place.
    So what if nurses cannot pass NCLEX? You'll never see any of them! You'll only see nurses who are able to pass NCLEX.

    You complain about poor education; yet you fail to understand that nurses who are going to junk schools are not going to pass local boards or NCLEX and therefore would not be practicing in the USA.

    Problem solved!

    So many of your complaints and "concerns" about healthcare conditions in other countries have absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not nurses who are hired at your hospital are going to be good or not because they have ALREADY BEEN SCREENED ALONG THE WAY.

    Quote from Alexk49
    The issue is there are been an explosion of Pinoy nurse graduates who have not been able to come to the USA since retrogression and many are not working as nurses, how do you think they can gain employment as time ticks on.
    Other countries are still hiring. As I've said before, many nurses go to work in the middle east to gain experience while waiting out retrogression. Others have immigration lawyers that have helped them with alternatives to retrogression and have been able to get to the USA and start working already (though these are a small minority).

    Quote from Alexk49
    I do believe you are helping nurses in the Philippines, but the issue is that they are educating nurses to export them without consulting the countries they are exporting them to.
    Again untrue. Many of the universities here are coordinating with US hospitals and US colleges of nursing to increase the quality of education.
    Many NCLEX schools are increasing the level of information by using only programs which are created and certified in the USA.

    Quote from Alexk49
    My last issue, I think there are good to great people in even culture, I find it offensive for you to state that Asian nurses have better customer service skills, my experience as a nurse and a patient is that they are the same as any nurse, I find that an offensive comment.
    Did I say that all Asian nurses have better service skills?
    Did I say that all Asian nurses have better experience?

    No, what I said was that there are reasons which make Asian nurses more attractive to hiring hospitals in the USA. Those being the multicultural experience that Pinoy nurses often get by working in US-quality hospitals in the Mid-East as well as dealing with difficult conditions here in the Philippines.
    I have also said that many hospital staffing personell have stated that THEY FEEL that Asian nurses provide better compassionate caregiving. I was careful to state that as it was the opinion of others that I have talked to.

    If you want to ask my opinion as a patient, I have to admit that Asian (Pinoy, Vietnamese, Chinese and Korean) nurses have been much gentler and kinder to me than SOME American nurses. However I have also had excellent experiences with American and Arab nurses. The fact that I have had negative interactions with American nurses and not a single negative interaction with Asian nurses might tilt my view a little. Additionally the fact that the best blood draws I've ever had have been at the hands of Pinoy nurses (male and female).

    I will never trash American nurses; it would be stupid to do so and I do sincerely apologize if you have been offended by any of my statements. Believe me when I say that I have the greatest respect for anyone who chooses an occupation of service, compassion and care.

    Lastly, I know you have taken issue with me because I am not a nurse and therefore do not have a nurse's perspective. I am well aware of that. Please understand that I have worked closely with medical professionals for many years now. The current occupation I hold in the Philippines is only the last year of my life, before that I worked with doctors, nurses, EMTs and other assorted healthcare workers in many ways. I feel that my input is valid because of the diversity of persons and cultures that I've worked with in regard to various aspects of medical care and coordination.
  3. by   Silverdragon102
    Closing this thread for a cooling off period
  4. by   Silverdragon102
    OK. Reopening the thread and can we please try and keep this to a more constructive and friendly debate
  5. by   Hushdawg
    Yes Ma'am! Thank you for the gentle reminder.

    I'd like to suggest that we stop using arguments of substandard education and healthcare facilities as a reason not to bring nurses in from outside the USA.
    It is very demeaning to non-US nurses who do not fit into the stereotype that is being perpetuated.

    Non-US nurses who are passing NCLEX and have been accepted as potential hires by US Hospitals are already going through massive screening processes at the BON level as well as the hospital administration level to ensure that only quality care providing nurses are being hired to work in the USA.

    Let's focus on the real issue at hand which is NOT the imporation of nurses in general; but rather the extension of 20,000 green cards annually with adjustments as needed (under review each year) for RNs to fill the impending (not current) nurse shortage.

    This of course will overlap issues of nurse employment in general in the USA and nurse working environments/conditions/treatment by hospitals/etc.

    Fair enough?
  6. by   lawrence01
    Let's focus on the real issue at hand which is NOT the imporation of nurses in general; but rather the extension of 20,000 green cards annually with adjustments as needed (under review each year) for RNs to fill the impending (not current) nurse shortage.

    This of course will overlap issues of nurse employment in general in the USA and nurse working environments/conditions/treatment by hospitals/etc.

    Fair enough?
    Don't forget to mention that it's only good for 3 years then it stops.
  7. by   Ginger's Mom
    http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos083.htm#Employment change. Employment of registered nurses is expected to grow 23 percent from 2006 to 2016, much faster than the average for all occupations. Growth will be driven by technological advances in patient care, which permit a greater number of health problems to be treated, and by an increasing emphasis on preventive care. In addition, the number of older people, who are much more likely than younger people to need nursing care, is projected to grow rapidly.

    However, employment of RNs will not grow at the same rate in every industry. The projected growth rates for RNs in the industries with the highest employment of these workers are:

    Percent
    Offices of physicians 39
    Home health care services 39
    Outpatient care centers, except mental health and substance abuse 34
    Employment services 27
    General medical and surgical hospitals, public and private 22
    Nursing care facilities 20
    Employment is expected to grow more slowly in hospitals--health care's largest industry--than in most other health care industries. While the intensity of nursing care is likely to increase, requiring more nurses per patient, the number of inpatients (those who remain in the hospital for more than 24 hours) is not likely to grow by much. Patients are being discharged earlier, and more procedures are being done on an outpatient basis, both inside and outside hospitals. Rapid growth is expected in hospital outpatient facilities, such as those providing same-day surgery, rehabilitation, and chemotherapy.

    My point is hospitals are not where the nursing shortage is going to be. Currently in 2009, I don't see many hospitals recruiting any one.

    Could someone point me to the hospitals that have a shortage? I am assuming this is a perceived shortage and not real.


    The need will be in less desirable ( and lower paying positions) in home health and out patient centers. Why are they not actively recruiting it seems odd since they are a biggest risk.
  8. by   Ginger's Mom
    Quote from Hushdawg
    Yes Ma'am! Thank you for the gentle reminder.

    I'd like to suggest that we stop using arguments of substandard education and healthcare facilities as a reason not to bring nurses in from outside the USA.
    It is very demeaning to non-US nurses who do not fit into the stereotype that is being perpetuated.

    Non-US nurses who are passing NCLEX and have been accepted as potential hires by US Hospitals are already going through massive screening processes at the BON level as well as the hospital administration level to ensure that only quality care providing nurses are being hired to work in the USA.

    Let's focus on the real issue at hand which is NOT the imporation of nurses in general; but rather the extension of 20,000 green cards annually with adjustments as needed (under review each year) for RNs to fill the impending (not current) nurse shortage.

    This of course will overlap issues of nurse employment in general in the USA and nurse working environments/conditions/treatment by hospitals/etc.

    Fair enough?

    The jobs that need to filled need experienced nurses. Many of the nurses who wish to come to the USA have no experience.
    As an experienced outpatient nurse, you have to be aware of community resources.

    The positions in the hospitals are non existent ( at least my observation), could you show me a web site of a hospital that is actively looking for new graduates? Not an agency or a temporary work agency. Are these hospitals advertising in our states where jobs are plenty?

    My last point is hospitals have told our president they will reduce health care costs by 1.5%, recruiting our of area is very expensive. How are hospitals planning on making up the costs of recruitment ?
  9. by   Hushdawg
    Quote from Alexk49
    My point is hospitals are not where the nursing shortage is going to be. Currently in 2009, I don't see many hospitals recruiting any one.

    Could someone point me to the hospitals that have a shortage? I am assuming this is a perceived shortage and not real.
    You've double-spoken here.

    Your word choice in the first statement is "where the nursing shortage is going to be." Then you follow up with "Currently" and "have a shortage" instead of "will have."

    That's the whole point. There are hospitals hiring in small cities and rural areas all across the USA at standard or below standard rates.

    The purpose of this bill is the projection based on statistics and numbers of impending retiring nurses that we will be facing a major shortage of nurses working within just a few years. This is why the emergency nurse relief act only has a few years of time to be in effect. It is NOT a permanent addition to the number of green cards each year, rather it is an adjusted addition to facilitate the needed growth in the short term while the nursing schools work to fill the gap in long term.
  10. by   Hushdawg
    Quote from Alexk49
    The jobs that need to filled need experienced nurses. Many of the nurses who wish to come to the USA have no experience.
    As an experienced outpatient nurse, you have to be aware of community resources.
    Your first argument is irrelevant. Hospitals in the USA do not hire foreign nurses without experience. Almost all of them require 2 years in clinical setting.

    Let's focus on realities of who will actually be working in US hospitals rather than those who WISH to come.

    I had a conversation this morning with a nurse who spoke fluent English (better than some Americans I went to High school with, that's for sure!) and has worked for 3 years in a US hospital in Saudi Arabia. This is the caliber of nurse that will end up working in US hospitals. One of the best things that comes out of retrogression is the backup supply of nurse is going to allow hospitals to be very choosy over who they hire so that they really get the best of the best.

    Your second argument is highly irrelevant. If you follow that logic then no nurse could ever work in a hospital outside an area that she has lived. Therefore no nurse from New York City should ever work in a small city hospital in North Carolina since the communities are completely different.

    Quote from Alexk49
    The positions in the hospitals are non existent ( at least my observation), could you show me a web site of a hospital that is actively looking for new graduates? Not an agency or a temporary work agency. Are these hospitals advertising in our states where jobs are plenty?

    My last point is hospitals have told our president they will reduce health care costs by 1.5%, recruiting our of area is very expensive. How are hospitals planning on making up the costs of recruitment ?
    I just did a quick search here: http://www.nursetogether.com/JobSear...8/Default.aspx

    There are 6+ pages of results in various places.
    Again, you miss the point. This isn't about a nurse shortage RIGHT NOW. It is about a nurse shortage within the next few years because of the advancing age of currently working RNs.

    Recruitment is being cut in the following ways:
    agencies and hospitals are no longer paying for NCLEX registration or exams, they are no longer paying for review courses or visa applications.
    Agencies are seeking out "ready-to-go" nurses.
    That cuts out a TON of money being spent.
  11. by   Silverdragon102
    Quote from Hushdawg
    Your first argument is irrelevant. Hospitals in the USA do not hire foreign nurses without experience. Almost all of them require 2 years in clinical setting.
    We have many members posting in the International forum that they have no nursing experience and have employers in the US but stuck in retrogression. Agencies generally will ask for experience but reading the threads in the International section many especially in the Philippines are struggling to get this experience.
  12. by   Ginger's Mom
    Quote from Hushdawg
    Your first argument is irrelevant. Hospitals in the USA do not hire foreign nurses without experience. Almost all of them require 2 years in clinical setting.

    Let's focus on realities of who will actually be working in US hospitals rather than those who WISH to come.

    I had a conversation this morning with a nurse who spoke fluent English (better than some Americans I went to High school with, that's for sure!) and has worked for 3 years in a US hospital in Saudi Arabia. This is the caliber of nurse that will end up working in US hospitals. One of the best things that comes out of retrogression is the backup supply of nurse is going to allow hospitals to be very choosy over who they hire so that they really get the best of the best.

    Your second argument is highly irrelevant. If you follow that logic then no nurse could ever work in a hospital outside an area that she has lived. Therefore no nurse from New York City should ever work in a small city hospital in North Carolina since the communities are completely different.



    I just did a quick search here: http://www.nursetogether.com/JobSear...8/Default.aspx

    There are 6+ pages of results in various places.
    Again, you miss the point. This isn't about a nurse shortage RIGHT NOW. It is about a nurse shortage within the next few years because of the advancing age of currently working RNs.

    Recruitment is being cut in the following ways:
    agencies and hospitals are no longer paying for NCLEX registration or exams, they are no longer paying for review courses or visa applications.
    Agencies are seeking out "ready-to-go" nurses.
    That cuts out a TON of money being spent.
    I went to the search site and the positions I saw were for very seasoned nurses with a specialty. If a US born nurse is not available for these very specialized positions, I agree there is a need to bring in the nurses. I did see very few medical surgical nurses, so the foreign nurses will need specialty experience also.

    If the agencies are not paying for travel expenses, prep courses, housing, that is even better. This means the foreign nurses would be processed like the native nurses. If there is a bonus, the foreign nurse should be entitled to it ( just like a native nurse) after they have been successfully employed.

    If you look at the history of nurse immigration traditionally the nurses went to urban hospitals, if there is a need in rural lower paying jobs and the foreign nurses are willing work in these areas, I would see it as a good situation.

    Are the foreign nurses aware that the situation has changed? That you must have experience and pay your own way?
  13. by   Ginger's Mom
    Quote from Hushdawg
    You've double-spoken here.

    Your word choice in the first statement is "where the nursing shortage is going to be." Then you follow up with "Currently" and "have a shortage" instead of "will have."

    That's the whole point. There are hospitals hiring in small cities and rural areas all across the USA at standard or below standard rates.

    The purpose of this bill is the projection based on statistics and numbers of impending retiring nurses that we will be facing a major shortage of nurses working within just a few years. This is why the emergency nurse relief act only has a few years of time to be in effect. It is NOT a permanent addition to the number of green cards each year, rather it is an adjusted addition to facilitate the needed growth in the short term while the nursing schools work to fill the gap in long term.
    Since there is not a "shortage" right now and this in anticipation of need, why is the bill be proposed now. Shouldn't it be proposed when there is a need.


    My point about the outpatient and home nursing is the following.

    A. nursing education the progression of care is taught, that the nurse always needs to be thinking of the next level of care. My understanding is that many countries do not have levels of care ( Hospital, SNF, Home Care, Skilled Nursing care, and custodial care). If I am wrong please correct me.

    B. Many times third party payors are looking for defined information for payment, the concept of insurance is totally new foreign nurses, what needs to pre certification, what is covered by insurance, etc.

    C. Since the outpatient systems don't exist in foreign countries the foreign nurses are not exposed to this type of care.

    If you read all the white papers about the upcoming nursing shortage, this is where the growth area for nurses is going to be.
    Last edit by Ginger's Mom on May 30, '09 : Reason: ADDING CONTENT

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