Read what is being said by American Lawyers about US Nurses, basically we are uneducated, not dedicated, and need the help of foreign nurses to function.
American nurses especially ADN prepared nurses are inferior to Foreign BSN nurses.
American nurses abandon patients.
I have written to my congressmen regarding my feelings about this bill. I resent being told by non nurses how nursing should practice.
We needed, I feel qualified internationally educated nurses can add to the American Nursing profession, currently there in no need to import nurses.
Saying "only an Associate's degree" is like saying that an associate's degree is garbage.
Actually, I can think of an associate's degree that pays very well: Photography.
Photography was my first degree and it was an associate's. Some of my classmates went on to become staff photographers earning 70-80K per year. I went freelance to supplement my income from another job while I was studying for another degree and could earn $1200 in one weekend.
So associates degrees are not garbage, they are simply concentrated courses on programs which can be taught in a shorter period of time.
That being said, however, let me illustrate a point.
Two people come to apply for a staff job in your hospital. Both are licensed in your state.
One has an Associate's degree in Nursing
One has a BA in Nursing
Which would you hire for one available slot?
Usually you go for someone more qualified.
Isn't someone with a BA more qualified than someone with an Associate's?
Almost all foreign nurses are BA holders.
Maybe this also makes a difference?
The Bachelors Degree is a Bachelor of SCIENCE in Nursing, not a Bachelors of ARTS in Nursing. The difference is about 20 -30 College Level SCIENCE classes. If foreign nurses have a Bachelors of Arts in Nursing, then NO, they are not the educational equivalent of American colleges. JMHO and my NY $0.02.
So all is well as long as someone is O.K with working under these conditions? What about the patients? What kind of care do you think they are receiving? We are all aging and we are susceptible to illness or injury at any time in our lives. At some point in almost everyone's life they will need to be hospitalized or be in need of permanent care in a SNF/LTC. I ask over and over again....is this the kind of care that you want for yourself or your loved ones? I swear I would rather be dead than be a patient in a lot of places. I know that what we get here in the U.S is better than the 3rd world but what kind of standard is that for comparison?
I didn't say all is well and good. I said this is why Immigrant nurses have positions to take and that this is why there is a nursing shortage.
Honestly I think it is terrible and more proof that we need universal healthcare in the USA.
Yes, I completely agree that this sort of environment is a danger to the patients. No argument here.
The Bachelors Degree is a Bachelor of SCIENCE in Nursing, not a Bachelors of ARTS in Nursing. The difference is about 20 -30 College Level SCIENCE classes. If foreign nurses have a Bachelors of Arts in Nursing, then NO, they are not the educational equivalent of American colleges. JMHO and my NY $0.02.
Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane, Washington
That's my mistake in the abbreviation because I was thinking about the difference of pay between a photographer with an AA versus a BA.
You make a living counseling RNs who wish to immigrate to the USA and you do not practice in the USA ( Much different then knowing trends) so I would say you have a vested interest in seeing this bill approved. Not that this is bad, but your viewpoint is very different than a practicing nurse.
My point is a nurse should get the education for the country they plan to practice in the country. Not having the proper education in the area and local you wish to practice is a disadvantage .
UK Nurse= UK Education
Canada Nurse = Canada Education
etc, etc.
The thing is some countries are trying to make a living by exporting nurses to other countries. In my opinion they only way they are going get an equal education is having a equal clinical experiences, this can happen by having hospitals and clinics that are set up to the country they wish to practice standards or have rotations ( that are approved by the BON) to meet their standard.
This has nothing to do with a nurse being different color or race only based on education and citizenship of the nurse.
For a long time, there was a thought a nurse is a nurse and you can float a nurse to any location in a hospital and the nurse should be able to function without any orientation. No one excepts that any nurse moving to have a detailed orientation yet this bill proposed that nurses from a foreign country can jump in and function at 100% , sorry I don't buy it.
Saying "only an Associate's degree" is like saying that an associate's degree is garbage.
Actually, I can think of an associate's degree that pays very well: Photography.
Photography was my first degree and it was an associate's. Some of my classmates went on to become staff photographers earning 70-80K per year. I went freelance to supplement my income from another job while I was studying for another degree and could earn $1200 in one weekend.
So associates degrees are not garbage, they are simply concentrated courses on programs which can be taught in a shorter period of time.
That being said, however, let me illustrate a point.
Two people come to apply for a staff job in your hospital. Both are licensed in your state.
One has an Associate's degree in Nursing
One has a BA in Nursing
Which would you hire for one available slot?
Usually you go for someone more qualified.
Isn't someone with a BA more qualified than someone with an Associate's?
Almost all foreign nurses are BA holders.
Maybe this also makes a difference?
You just finished making the argument that passing the NCLEX is proof that foreign-educated nurses are just as knowledgeable and skilled as US educated nurses. Baccalaureate-prepared and Associate's-prepared nurses pass the exact same NCLEX exam and hold exactly the same license, so how can you then turn around and argue that one is "more qualified" than the other because of which degree s/he holds? You can't have it both ways. There are many factors to consider in deciding who is "more qualified" for a particular position.
You make a living counseling RNs who wish to immigrate to the USA and you do not practice in the USA ( Much different then knowing trends) so I would say you have a vested interest in seeing this bill approved. Not that this is bad, but your viewpoint is very different than a practicing nurse.
My point is a nurse should get the education for the country they plan to practice in the country. Not having the proper education in the area and local you wish to practice is a disadvantage .
UK Nurse= UK Education
Canada Nurse = Canada Education
etc, etc.
The thing is some countries are trying to make a living by exporting nurses to other countries. In my opinion they only way they are going get an equal education is having a equal clinical experiences, this can happen by having hospitals and clinics that are set up to the country they wish to practice standards or have rotations ( that are approved by the BON) to meet their standard.
This has nothing to do with a nurse being different color or race only based on education and citizenship of the nurse.
For a long time, there was a thought a nurse is a nurse and you can float a nurse to any location in a hospital and the nurse should be able to function without any orientation. No one excepts that any nurse moving to have a detailed orientation yet this bill proposed that nurses from a foreign country can jump in and function at 100% , sorry I don't buy it.
With the greatest of respect how can a COUNTRY make a living exporting nurses? Where do you get this stuff? Also, as for educating people in the country they are going to work in; do you think this is the case for all professions -- or just nursing? What about foreign doctors? This country would have collapsed without foreign educated individuals.
As for the idea of a some "shadow" nursing workforce sitting around waiting for the planets to align before they jump back in? Rubbish. This idea has been debunked again and again. These "inactive" nurses have repeatedly reported that their top reasons for leaving were in fact not related to conditions & pay and that they are not poised to come back to work.
I confess having waited for one of you naysayers to make a good point in this discussion I have become bored.
With the greatest of respect how can a COUNTRY make a living exporting nurses? Where do you get this stuff? Also, as for educating people in the country they are going to work in; do you think this is the case for all professions -- or just nursing? What about foreign doctors? This country would have collapsed without foreign educated individuals.
As for the idea of a some "shadow" nursing workforce sitting around waiting for the planets to align before they jump back in? Rubbish. This idea has been debunked again and again. These "inactive" nurses have repeatedly reported that their top reasons for leaving were in fact not related to conditions & pay and that they are not poised to come back to work.
I confess having waited for one of you naysayers to make a good point in this discussion I have become bored.
Well, I can at least say I agree with the fact that I dont believe there is a group of nurses out there waiting to rejoin the work force. And even if there is, there is just as big a group working now waiting for things to improve so they may leave. Add me to that list for one.
I've said from the start that once the economy improves, people are going to find out what a nursing shortage is. I can name ten people off the top of my head who are GONE/DONE the second the job market improves. Some want to work part time doing something else while waiting for their retirement funds to mature. Others (me) want to make nursing a side job instead of a career and are waiting for better opportunities in other fields. I know at least three that take it even a step further than I, plan on completely leaving nursing for another career, wont even be working part time as a nurse once they find another avenue. And, we have not even gotten to the ones who will retire once the economy is better.......the ones who are only around because otherwise, their retirement funds would drain.
Heck, I know personally two nurses who quit despite the bad economy, didnt have it in them to wait for things to improve. One sited poor working conditions (being pulled twice a week to floors she was not comfortable on) and another sited schedule reasons (done with nights, refuses to do them at all anymore).
So, yeah, in a couple years when the economy improves, we may be praying a few foreign nurses end up on our unit so we can have that elusive day off. That is not the goal of people like the lawyers mentioned in this topic though. They wish to bring in so many foreign nurses that the field becomes saturated NOW (in a couple years, it wont be doable). So, at least for a couple years, they can bump up CEO and administrative salaries while forsaking having to pay anything for nurses or having to worry about people rebelling against poor work conditions.
With the greatest of respect how can a COUNTRY make a living exporting nurses? Where do you get this stuff? Also, as for educating people in the country they are going to work in; do you think this is the case for all professions -- or just nursing? What about foreign doctors? This country would have collapsed without foreign educated individuals.
As for the idea of a some "shadow" nursing workforce sitting around waiting for the planets to align before they jump back in? Rubbish. This idea has been debunked again and again. These "inactive" nurses have repeatedly reported that their top reasons for leaving were in fact not related to conditions & pay and that they are not poised to come back to work.
I confess having waited for one of you naysayers to make a good point in this discussion I have become bored.
Countries make a living by exporting nurses from the MONEY, that these nurses earn in he United States, and send the money back to their home country for their families to spend to support themselves.
And yes, as has been stated, there are 500, 000 nurses who are not working, and could/would return to active practice. However, as it stands now, you might as well as have leprosy, than try to return to work in active nursing after not having practiced for a couple of years.
Hospitals make it almost impossible for older nurses to return to work. They would rather pay new grads and pay them to go through a new grad orientation, than pay older nurses, who have been around the block a few times, and who would not be too easly pushed around.
I would not be happy if this county brought in thousands of foreign nurses, before they have exhausted ALL OF THEIR OTHER OPTIONS. Here in Washington State new grads are unable to get jobs after graduation, and now Swedish Hospital in Seattle had sent out recruiters to bring in foreign nurses from the Phillipines. Why? There are hundreds of nurses here in Washington State who need jobs, and they have no business bringing in foreign nurses to take these jobs. Of course, these foreign nurses would not be unionized by the state nursing association, or SEIU.
The name of the game is CONTROL OF THE NURSING PROFESSION!! Nurses have been told by their employers, "do what we tell you, or you will be replaced by foreign nurses from 3rd world countries, who will do anything we tell them to do".
THAT is what happened with the Sentosa nurses on Long Island, in NY.
Countries make a living by exporting nurses from the MONEY, that these nurses earn in he United States, and send the money back to their home country for their families to spend to support themselves.
And yes, as has been stated, there are 500, 000 nurses who are not working, and could/would return to active practice. However, as it stands now, you might as well as have leprosy, than try to return to work in active nursing after not having practiced for a couple of years.
Hospitals make it almost impossible for older nurses to return to work. They would rather pay new grads and pay them to go through a new grad orientation, than pay older nurses, who have been around the block a few times, and who would not be too easly pushed around.
I would not be happy if this county brought in thousands of foreign nurses, before they have exhausted ALL OF THEIR OTHER OPTIONS. Here in Washington State new grads are unable to get jobs after graduation, and now Swedish Hospital in Seattle had sent out recruiters to bring in foreign nurses from the Phillipines. Why? There are hundreds of nurses here in Washington State who need jobs, and they have no business bringing in foreign nurses to take these jobs. Of course, these foreign nurses would not be unionized by the state nursing association, or SEIU.
The name of the game is CONTROL OF THE NURSING PROFESSION!! Nurses have been told by their employers, "do what we tell you, or you will be replaced by foreign nurses from 3rd world countries, who will do anything we tell them to do".
THAT is what happened with the Sentosa nurses on Long Island, in NY.
THAT is what the issues are!
Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane, Washington
You are reaching and using unreal generalizations. What is your source of this "data" about 500,000 inactive nurses? What is your source of information stating these foreign nurses will come from "3rd world countries"? What are you calling 3rd a third world country? Is Britain a 3rd world country? Perhaps China?
As for a shortage of jobs in your area - you cannot extrapolate that to the rest of the US.
You do recognize that the Philippines are in fact industrialized and not a banana republic don't you? Probably not.
As for illustration with the Sentosa nurse case -- they resigned. So you are not even proving your point that your 3rd world nurses will do anything.
It must be very exhausting to be so angry and afraid. I am so sorry for you.
You are reaching and using unreal generalizations. What is your source of this "data" about 500,000 inactive nurses? What is your source of information stating these foreign nurses will come from "3rd world countries"? What are you calling 3rd a third world country? Is Britain a 3rd world country? Perhaps China?
As for a shortage of jobs in your area - you cannot extrapolate that to the rest of the US.
You do recognize that the Philippines are in fact industrialized and not a banana republic don't you? Probably not.
As for illustration with the Sentosa nurse case -- they resigned. So you are not even proving your point that your 3rd world nurses will do anything.
It must be very exhausting to be so angry and afraid. I am so sorry for you.
Well I am in East coast with adult children in AZ and NY, so from our small sample, MA, WA, AZ, NY nurses are having trouble finding positions.
From what I read on the board, from posters in the Philippines is that conditions except for a few tertiary hospitals are primitive.
The Sentosa nurses were are a horrible chapter in nursing. They were sent to live in slave like conditions and then put in unsafe nursing settings and they were unable to navigate through the US system. Shame on the recruiters and shame on the US system for allowing these nurses to be put in that horrible situation. That is why foreign nurses should have a bridging program to prepare them in a humane way to practice nursing.
The number of Philippine nurses is based on number of nurses from the Philippines that sit for the boards. If you check the Health Affairs Article is also cites the Philippines as the number one exporter of nurses.
You just finished making the argument that passing the NCLEX is proof that foreign-educated nurses are just as knowledgeable and skilled as US educated nurses. Baccalaureate-prepared and Associate's-prepared nurses pass the exact same NCLEX exam and hold exactly the same license, so how can you then turn around and argue that one is "more qualified" than the other because of which degree s/he holds? You can't have it both ways. There are many factors to consider in deciding who is "more qualified" for a particular position.
I'm not having it both ways. They are both licensed and the NCLEX exam is used in the licensing. Therefore one cannot say that one licensed nurse is inferior to another licensed nurse.
However, when doing hiring all of the credentials are put on the line. If there are two equally qualified persons with the only difference between them being that one has an AS and the other has a BS which would you hire?
Honestly.
This isn't about what I believe, this is about how the staff are hired by the hospital owners.
You make a living counseling RNs who wish to immigrate to the USA and you do not practice in the USA ( Much different then knowing trends) so I would say you have a vested interest in seeing this bill approved. Not that this is bad, but your viewpoint is very different than a practicing nurse.
I honestly have no vested interest one way or the other. I'll continue doing my job and helping nurses whether this bill is passed or not. The difference in the volume of visas released doesn't affect my income one way or another.
I'm not a practicing nurse, that is why I spend time reading blogs and social sites like this to get the viewpoint of a practicing nurse. It is also why I chose to read only without responding for three months on Allnurses.
My point is a nurse should get the education for the country they plan to practice in the country. Not having the proper education in the area and local you wish to practice is a disadvantage .
UK Nurse= UK Education
Canada Nurse = Canada Education
etc, etc.
This is pretty silly honestly.
I can understand a bridging course for immigrant medical professionals but really the human body is the same worldwide so the training isn't going to be so different that someone would have to take a whole new 4 year course to be able to practice medicine.
UK, Australia and New Zealand have an excellently established bridging education program for all incoming nurses. It is adjusted based on the knowledge level of the nurse (pre-tests determine) and the maximum length of time is 6 months.
If the USA adopted Universal healthcare then we could adopt a similarly intelligent program but currently each company owning a hospital has to be responsible for these kinds of bridging courses.
The thing is some countries are trying to make a living by exporting nurses to other countries. In my opinion they only way they are going get an equal education is having a equal clinical experiences, this can happen by having hospitals and clinics that are set up to the country they wish to practice standards or have rotations ( that are approved by the BON) to meet their standard.
Countries make a living by exporting nurses? Right.. that makes a lot of sense.
The reason people become nurses and get jobs overseas has nothing to do with the country they come from, it has to do with trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.
As for clinical experience, I would LOVE to see US hospitals set up shop in the key nations to train nurses in a real clinical setting before sending them to the USA. This would solve dozens of problems all at once. Bring it on!
For a long time, there was a thought a nurse is a nurse and you can float a nurse to any location in a hospital and the nurse should be able to function without any orientation. No one excepts that any nurse moving to have a detailed orientation yet this bill proposed that nurses from a foreign country can jump in and function at 100% , sorry I don't buy it.
Honestly, a nurse working in a small town hospital in the USA moving to a major heath care center in NYC would have just as much difficulty adjusting than a nurse moving from Manila, Philippines to the USA.
Bridging courses I totally agree with, rejecting all foreign education is a ludicrous idea altogether.
lindarn
1,982 Posts
The Bachelors Degree is a Bachelor of SCIENCE in Nursing, not a Bachelors of ARTS in Nursing. The difference is about 20 -30 College Level SCIENCE classes. If foreign nurses have a Bachelors of Arts in Nursing, then NO, they are not the educational equivalent of American colleges. JMHO and my NY $0.02.
Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane, Washington