Emergency Nurse Relief Act 2009- Update

Ginger's Mom, MSN, RN · May 25, 2009

Why disagree? Is patient care and the positive outcome not the bottom line? My argument is more hypothetical; however, I still think it is valid. Currently, I cannot find any evidence that foreign nurses improve patient outcomes. However, let's say a large double blinded peer reviewed trial concludes that Australian educated nurses lead to significantly improved outcomes in the United States? Lets even say several large trials over several years make the same conclusions? My stance is that if this were the case, then Australian nurses should be given the first pick of jobs.
Having good data and evidence is the best way to ensure jobs remain open to Americans. If we can gather evidence that supports having US nurses fill these positions, it will make defending our stance much easier. My argument is one of intelligence over emotion. Getting angry and crying about this will not help, get the evidence, make a strong case, and let the people know.

I would say if any country has better nursing outcomes we should adopt them. We should send American Nurses to these countries and learn what works and incorporate their standards into US nursing practice.

Point is the majority of the foreign educated nurses are coming from third world countries where nursing out comes are poor.

Ginger's Mom, MSN, RN · May 25, 2009

I agree we need to educate americans first, but thats where we as nurses need to stand up and say something, we cannot educate nurses if there are not enough educators, the pay rates for teaching are pathetic to say the least and there is not enough nurses who have graduae degrees wanting to work for peanuts and I cannot blame them. I recently completed a year long graduate teaching fellowship during my MSN programmed and let me telll you it was a ton of work for very little compensation. I enjoy teaching but will not consider doing it full time when I can make almost double in the clinical setting. So maybe we should start with getting things in place to adequately educate those wanting to be nurses here in the US and then we can make everyone happy and not blame others who come here to earn a decent living that they may not earn in their home country.

I am in the same boat as you masters prepare and unable to teach full time due to the loss of income. I think the answer is to pay nursing educators, not import foreign nurses.

VICEDRN, BSN, RN · May 25, 2009

For the record, I just wrote to my congresspeople about this issue.

I think American patients would do better with American nurses. This means culturally, linguistically and in every other way.

There is no shortage of nurses as evidenced by the number of part timers and PRN-ers who took full time positions in our area, effectively ending the shortage (just a shortage of those who don't want to work under those conditions). Further, I agree that other countries do not allow us to nurse there unless we are essentially native speakers and only under certain circumstances and in limited numbers.

GilaRRT · May 25, 2009

I would say if any country has better nursing outcomes we should adopt them. We should send American Nurses to these countries and learn what works and incorporate their standards into US nursing practice.
Point is the majority of the foreign educated nurses are coming from third world countries where nursing out comes are poor.

Let's see the data supporting your statement. If this is true and backed up with good evidence, you can use this evidence to your advantage.

lindarn · May 25, 2009

As an american nurse most European countries wil not readily employee me. Why? Because they employ their own nurses first. So just where is it we newbie's are supposed to work? And please believe this is just the start ,it will reach the more experienced nurses also. And as if someone said this is a patient care more than a work issue I beg to differ. Nursing is not rocket science and americans are perfectly capable of doing the job.
I am new and coming to deeply regret this decision to become a nurse. It was not only a surprise to learn there was no nursing shortage and of course there is not. Clue- When there is a shortage there are plenty of JOBS and employers treat you well because they want to keep you. This "shortage" has been manufactured so that big business can once again push another career tract out of the country, this time by insourcing instead of outsourcing.
But even more exasperating in the "lay down an let the truck run over me because they told me to" attitude of so many nurses. NOT ALL so please understand I am not saying all. I have met wonderful people in nursing, wonderful nurses. But so many of them are so passive and unconconcerned with their own well being it is frightening. Do I want to join this group? I am really questioning myself. I am so sad about this. I feel like if I try to watch out for myself I will "not be a real nurse".
I have had many professional jobs, blue collar jobs before that and have never seen another group of people, much less professionals act this way. Please believe I mean no ill will. But I believe this is something that is practically undeniable. So many nurses accept abuse and that anyone that complains about it is " not a good nurse", not dedicated,,,
So, the big problems here as I see it is nurses themselves. Divided we fall and all that and nurses are the most divided group I have ever seen. No wonder so many hospitals etc are trying to replace them, besides cost, dealing with codependent people is frustrating.
I am going to try and find my place because financially I have to. It is a pity because I passed up some great offers to do a job I thought I would love. So much for being called to something. I certainly didnt take this route for money, but it might keep me there as due to the economy changing I suspect the offers I had in the past are now long gone.
I love people. But I am very disappointed.

I completely agree. I have been saying for years that the worst problem with nurses is the "martyr mary" mentality. They will not stand up for themselves, or any other nurse. I have spent countless "unit meetings", with co-workers, who just ten minutes earlier, were complaining about something, and all of a sudden, when they are facing the nurse manager, or supervisor, they are speechless.

I truly believe that the Powers that Be, work very hard to recruit nurses with this, "martyr mary" mentality. Anyone who ends up not fitting the mold, is pushed out the door. Others who remain, then are afraid to speak up becaue of what happened to, "you know who", who spoke up, and now he/she is gone.

Nurses are "socialized", in nursing school to be "good little girls and boys". Any gumption is almost beaten out of them. Along with the knowledge that there were perhaps, 100 applicants for every seat in nursing school. And you are supposed to feel "lucky" to have gotten in.

I don't know how to change things. I have seen this coming for a number of years, along with the deskilling of the nursing profession. I truly believe that the PTB, have been planning for a long time now, to bring down the nursing profession. We are the largest number of health care professionals. What we could do if we stick together. But, again, the PTB, are terrified that the nursing profession will finally rise up and take over our profession, and start to run things. THAT is what is behind all of these terror tactics.

It would be great if the NNOC and the CNA could start groups in every state to fight this. Encourage every nurse to join, and be the powerful group that we can be. If they could go into nursing schools, talk to the student nurses, and impress on them the importance of activism.

The roots of activism need to be planted in nursing school. That is where we lose nurses to become politically active. It is not taught in nursing school.

That, and becoming an Independant Contractor, (as opposed to being an employee), and forming practice groups, to hire our professional services to the hospital, and hire our own corporate attorneys to represent us. That would be ideal. Any nursing instructors who can incorporate this topic in their school curriculum? Plant the idea? If it is never introduced to the student nurses, they will never know that this possibility exists, and the situation will remain as status quo. JMHO and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

Ilithya · May 25, 2009

Why disagree? Is patient care and the positive outcome not the bottom line? My argument is more hypothetical; however, I still think it is valid. Currently, I cannot find any evidence that foreign nurses improve patient outcomes. However, let's say a large double blinded peer reviewed trial concludes that Australian educated nurses lead to significantly improved outcomes in the United States? Lets even say several large trials over several years make the same conclusions? My stance is that if this were the case, then Australian nurses should be given the first pick of jobs.
Having good data and evidence is the best way to ensure jobs remain open to Americans. If we can gather evidence that supports having US nurses fill these positions, it will make defending our stance much easier. My argument is one of intelligence over emotion. Getting angry and crying about this will not help, get the evidence, make a strong case, and let the people know.

I disagree completely, if Australian nurses are getting better scores than we need to find out what they are doing differently and then teach our nurses whats lacking. It is imperative that our country hires American nurses for the survival of the country as a whole. I believe that we should not create any foreign dependence where it is not needed and as long as we have nurses here looking for jobs that who we should be hiring. Im not saying we should never hire foreign nurses. Hiring foreign nurses when there are American nurses looking for jobs increases unemployment which increases the amount of people on unemployment benefits/welfare which increases taxes and national debt. It may not be the frilly ideal "nuring school answer" but its the truth.

Kristi_2003 · May 25, 2009

I have to say that I am sick to death of American Jobs going to foreigners!! Americans should be considered first for a job in their OWN country! I could carry on about this subject all day but I'll keep it short, brief & to the point....

Lovely_RN, MSN · May 25, 2009

You would think that this would be an no-brainer. The economy is bad and the simple solution is to hire less foreign workers not more. Why is self-preservation such a dirty concept in this country?

Big corporations have nickled and dimed the American worker almost unto death and now they are crying because most of us can't afford to carry on with the business of consuming any longer. Healthcare employment is one of the few remaining sources of stable employment with a decent income and now it's about to taken away from us via in-sourcing.

Well I won't be able to afford to return to school to pursue another career and I'm getting to old for this nonsense anyway. I don't know what to think but I feel like a rat in a trap when I read articles like this.

I have to say that I am sick to death of American Jobs going to foreigners!! Americans should be considered first for a job in their OWN country! I could carry on about this subject all day but I'll keep it short, brief & to the point....

2BSure · May 25, 2009

My goodness I can practically hear the US national anthem being hummed in the background while reading these posts.

How exactly are you defining American?

Why would a European country hire someone who is not fluent in their language? After all we require that people have excellent command of English (I should say American English).

Why would a foreign country hire a nurse with a two year degree? The UK is 3 years for a diploma and four for a degree. Also, they have a longer school year than us. Further, the entire degree or diploma or degree is related to nursing (no fun little history of art, or women's studies electives).

How precisely does someone benefit culturally from having an "American nurse"? Does that mean my Kenyan friend can get a Kenyan nurse? I have a Swedish neighbor what about him?My Irish mother had a Filipino nurse just a few weeks ago -- thank goodness she didn't suffer (by the way this nurse was possibly the best nurse I have EVER observed at that hospital).

Incidentally, I suspect your BONs, undoubtedly made up of American nurses, have the same white papers on this subject as mine. Please go educate yourselves before you start banging on about this anti-foreigner stuff and see why they are concerned about nursing numbers.

Aging population, aging nursing workforce, aging faculty with NOT enough qualified nurses in the pipeline to manage the numbers nor enough facilities to get them qualified.

Also, whoever judges the number of nurses needed by the number of available jobs in their area...well...it is just silly to extrapolate the nursing needs of these United States from your little corner of it.

Your lively-hood isn't going to be "taken away" by in-sourcing. What a load of xenophobic tosh.

Ginger's Mom, MSN, RN · May 25, 2009

But if you go to other non nursing sites, American nurses are being portrayed and being selfish and that even though we work in the field we do not understand that there is a nursing shortage right now.

The point that I am trying to make, as nurses we do not know how to play the political system. Do you think the immigration lawyers care about nursing practice ? No, they are more concerned about making money from the paperwork they can process for the foreign nurses.

The sad thing is the foreign nurses believe that they are desperately needed here in the USA. I feel there intentions are honorable but they are getting encouragement from people who are trying to make a living by importing them to the USA.

2BSure · May 25, 2009

Don't deflect this to be anti-lawyer or we will be here all day. Not many immigrants require a lawyer and those who use a lawyer usually pay a fixed fee. Employers quasi-sponsoring these nurses will pay and I think it will be $1,500.

HippyGreenPeaceChick · May 25, 2009

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2536
http://blogs.ilw.com/gregsiskind/2009/05/nurse-bill-introduced-in-house.html
Read what is being said by American Lawyers about US Nurses, basically we are uneducated, not dedicated, and need the help of foreign nurses to function.
American nurses especially ADN prepared nurses are inferior to Foreign BSN nurses.
American nurses abandon patients.
I have written to my congressmen regarding my feelings about this bill. I resent being told by non nurses how nursing should practice.
We needed, I feel qualified internationally educated nurses can add to the American Nursing profession, currently there in no need to import nurses.

Truthfully, As this is being said by American Lawyers, I just consider the source.