We had this huge discussion at work today, and i thought i'd get your opinions.
The statement was this: "We have to many people becoming nurses for the money. Its not like it used to be, where a nurse chose to be a nurse because they liked helping people. Its all about the money,."
We were talking about the increased patient complaints, and an older nurse stated the above and thats the reason for increased patient complaints.
If we relied on the Florences and Floyds(?) Nightingale to replenish the nursing ranks, we'd have no nurses. I'm still young enough to remember nursing school, and there were quite a few "adult students" who were returning so that they could feed families, or get off of welfare, or just make better money. I saw it as a way to move out of my parents house -- I was nearly through with a liberal arts degree with no job potential when I changed over.
Nursing school was tough as nails, but I scraped through. I was on the Dean's list before, and went to barely passing during a few of my nursing semesters. My first year on the job wasn't easy either -- but, after 10 years, I know my job, I love my patients, and I'm very perceptive of their clinical needs and changes.
People get into nursing for various reasons. People stay because they like it. Where I've seen decline in patient care was when we were understaffed, underfunded, inadequate equipment . . . and management didn't care.
I got into for economic reasons, and have stayed because I enjoy it and enjoy those I care for. With nursing turnover and burnout, at 10 years of experience, I am often the most senior nurse on my unit -- the one other nurses ask advice from.
I defy anyone to tell me I don't deserve to be a nurse.
I think that anyone who becomes a nurse for the money will be sorely disappointed in their decision. This is a career choice that comes from the heart, not the wallet. They would never cut it. You have to love this job, you have to love people, and you have to be strong and devoted to the profession to remain a nurse. They wouldn't last past their first pair of messed up new shoes!
Let's get real, and talk about people who are already nurses. Do you really think they're motivated only by the heart and not the wallet?
130,000 older RN's returned to work during the recession, most likely because they needed the money, not because of a sudden change of heart. Afterall, they had previously left the nursing profession ... where's the "heart" in that?
The state of California Board of Nursing just did a survey of employers. What was the number one reason employers either retained or lost nurses? MONEY. If the job pays more, they keep nurses. If they don't, then nurses jump ship to better paying positions.
Again, how are they motivated by the heart and not the wallet?
Let's be honest here: the vast majority, at least in part, is motivated by money ... be it nursing student or 20 year veterans. Talk to any nurse recruiter: they'll tell you the same thing. The bottom line on recruitment is money. Period.
So before we get a soapbox here ... and try to question one group's motives over the other ... let's look at the data. Because when you do that, there really isn't any difference. I don't care what people say ... everybody is in it for money at least to some extent. Anybody who believes otherwise is fooling themselves.
Let's be honest here.............Anybody who believes otherwise is fooling themselves.
If you read the thread, the overwhelming majority of us take the same view of as you. It's partly about the money. No need to stay on that soapbox for long. :rotfl:
Unlike mycotton and some others, I've haven't really heard anyone say "I'm going into nursing only because it pays well". Many I've heard add things like "I like people...helping people......science....", etc. in addition to the money.
I have heard many of us, myself included in times of extreme stress, "I'm staying only because the money." Or "I'm burned out with nursing, but after all these years, I make good money." Because quite honestly there've been times I'd rather flip burgers if they paid $30.00/hr. :)
If you read the thread, the overwhelming majority of us take the same view of as you. It's partly about the money. No need to stay on that soapbox for long. :rotfl:
Unlike mycotton and some others, I've haven't really heard anyone say "I'm going into nursing only because it pays well". Many I've heard add things like "I like people...helping people......science....", etc. in addition to the money.
I have heard many of us, myself included in times of extreme stress, "I'm staying only because the money." Or "I'm burned out with nursing, but after all these years, I make good money." Because quite honestly there've been times I'd rather flip burgers if they paid $30.00/hr. :)
So ... if we're in agreement that everybody is motivated by money, at least to some extent ...
What are the real reasons for these kinds of complaints?
Personally, I think some people are threatened by all of the new people coming into the profession. It's almost like they're a member of an exclusive club and they don't want anybody else to join.
Or maybe they're worried about competition. Afterall, wages are finally starting to improve after a long drought. Maybe they're worried about new entrants driving down wages.
Of course, then they'd complain about short staffing and how it makes their job so difficult ... I sometimes think you could move heaven and earth and they'd still complain.
From MY experience, I see the difference between those who choose nursing for the money and those who choose it from the heart. I hope you are right and those who choose it for the money will put their heart into it.
I strongly disagree. First most nurses who become nurses because it comes from the heart become burnt out faster because they give so much of themselves. I donot see anything wrong with nurses who come into nursing for the money. Nursing is a profession, and until people see it as such nurses will never get their share. I believe that most people have a caring heart, so if they chose nursing for the money, they would soon see what a huge difference they make in peoples lives.
A while back I posted a very straight forward posting on this topic...basically stating nurses should be in it for the heart not the money...however after seeing some points explained here I do need to state that I can see how a person would attempt nursing for the money and grow to love his/her career, if not could they last? Most likely not. Money had no motivation when I went into nursing, I did it for my heart, for my dad...he was paralyzed since I was 4 yrs old, I saw the good and bad in healthcare and wanted to make a difference. The state I lived in at the time paid nurses horribly. But I do have to say now, that some of my job choices, do directly relate to money in some aspect. That exist because I do need to support myself...don't have anyone to help, while being in school taking a higher paying job has definately helped out. However I couldn't do it for the money alone...because the job is so physically, mentally and emotionally demanding. But hey that is what I love about it.
Now regarding so many new nurses coming out and the comment Lizz made regarding feeling threatened...I do have to admit I do feel threatened by the oversea nurses. For these reasons, I believe everything nurses have fought for generation after generation stands to be at lost. I say this because most companies, would hire a nurse that isn't that big into being treated liked humans and less money, than the opposite. I think we deserve everything we have now and more, I don't want to see us loose our ground with nurses who will accept less in working conditions. It isn't right to the nurses in this country...the same reason I believe unions are a good thing...fight for better staffing, better schedules, better benefits.
It is very interesting to compare us to another civil service career, police officers...I was married to one...lol...anyhow that is how I know this stuff. Do you know that a Sheriff cannot deny a deputy time off based upon staffing ratios, yes held up in the supreme court. How many nurses are deprived of much needed time off??? How many nurses get reprimmanded for legitimate sick calls(not talking abusers here)???? Why must nurses constantly risk his/her life for a company???? When staffing agencies are available, paying OT is available. I have seen it done...hell I lost a per-diem job, I was still in training at the time...however I was sick twice, each time I was in the ER of the hospital, once for emergency surgery due to possible ectopic pregnancy, the next time to cut open the absecess that developed due to the surgery. So I was there however I was not really sick according to the current nurse manager. I attempted to fight it and was told sorry, I guess bad timing...wow I timed my emergencies. That would never fly for officers, they could grieve that to the fullest extent. However some may say safety...well officers do protect and save lives, not on such a critical level as ours...however is it safe to have a nurse on duty that is ill? or a Nurse on duty who is overworked, I say NO, I will gladly take their shift for them to be off, because we all need to be well and healthy to help our patients. Taking all things into consideration nursing has come far, yet a long way to go...I think the majority of nursing shortage falls on the heads of the administration, but just MHO.
Nurses need to join forces and stick together, happy patients come's from happy nurses, who are not ill or overworked. I think the very idea of bringing in nurses who will accept less standards, pushes us back several years, but hey you know...just my opinion.
Thanks for your well-stated and informed observations and opinion. I happen to agree with you. To everyone who is hanging the artist because they can't find the picture, allow me to clarify. My point was that Nursing is not a career that a person should choose for the money aspect...ONLY. If any of you think that this should be the reason, you are selling yourselves short. I am not saying that the money and benefits are not important, quite the contrary. They are extremely important. We have to live also. But, if I wanted to pick a career purely based on making money, and not on something I felt I would love, I would tell a person to look into their heart before they made that leap, because it's very difficult, mentally, physically, and emotionally. It is also very rewarding, in its own way. That innate gift that many, not all, nurses possess, is unique and sets us apart. Look at other professionals...lawyers, PT's, PA's, Teachers, Accountants, etc. We're just different. Maybe in a self-sacrificing way - we tend to be!! That may be the issue. Personally, I don't think we make enough! For all the lives that we must account for, the liability and responsiblity on our shoulders, just one little error,or God Forbid,a huge one...it only takes a second of fatigue, or a missed order, or just being human, (we're not supposed to be), and we are done with our careers! Work too long, short-staffed, ill, without a break, etc, don't dare screw up. You have to love what you do, to expose yourself to this, hence "heart 101" prerequisite, or potential failure, or maybe, yes, you could venture into other aspects of nursing without direct patient care. You could become Managment and make the rules for the floor nurses, having 0 knowledge of what floor nurses actually deal with on a daily basis!! Yes, you may start with the wallet, but that heart should be in it somewhere! You can't be a "people phobe" and decide that nursing will pay the bills! I respect Nurses more than I can say, that was my point. This is not easy money: Nurses must: take all the heat, Think on their feet, restore a heartbeat, and deal with defeat. That is just in 5 minutes... Stop fighting yourselves! It's HUMAN to want the money, for godsakes, but you can make that with your brain in other places. You're special. Appreciate that about yourself.
A while back I posted a very straight forward posting on this topic...basically stating nurses should be in it for the heart not the money...however after seeing some points explained here I do need to state that I can see how a person would attempt nursing for the money and grow to love his/her career, if not could they last? Most likely not. Money had no motivation when I went into nursing, I did it for my heart, for my dad...he was paralyzed since I was 4 yrs old, I saw the good and bad in healthcare and wanted to make a difference. The state I lived in at the time paid nurses horribly. But I do have to say now, that some of my job choices, do directly relate to money in some aspect. That exist because I do need to support myself...don't have anyone to help, while being in school taking a higher paying job has definately helped out. However I couldn't do it for the money alone...because the job is so physically, mentally and emotionally demanding. But hey that is what I love about it.
Now regarding so many new nurses coming out and the comment Lizz made regarding feeling threatened...I do have to admit I do feel threatened by the oversea nurses. For these reasons, I believe everything nurses have fought for generation after generation stands to be at lost. I say this because most companies, would hire a nurse that isn't that big into being treated liked humans and less money, than the opposite. I think we deserve everything we have now and more, I don't want to see us loose our ground with nurses who will accept less in working conditions. It isn't right to the nurses in this country...the same reason I believe unions are a good thing...fight for better staffing, better schedules, better benefits.
It is very interesting to compare us to another civil service career, police officers...I was married to one...lol...anyhow that is how I know this stuff. Do you know that a Sheriff cannot deny a deputy time off based upon staffing ratios, yes held up in the supreme court. How many nurses are deprived of much needed time off??? How many nurses get reprimmanded for legitimate sick calls(not talking abusers here)???? Why must nurses constantly risk his/her life for a company???? When staffing agencies are available, paying OT is available. I have seen it done...hell I lost a per-diem job, I was still in training at the time...however I was sick twice, each time I was in the ER of the hospital, once for emergency surgery due to possible ectopic pregnancy, the next time to cut open the absecess that developed due to the surgery. So I was there however I was not really sick according to the current nurse manager. I attempted to fight it and was told sorry, I guess bad timing...wow I timed my emergencies. That would never fly for officers, they could grieve that to the fullest extent. However some may say safety...well officers do protect and save lives, not on such a critical level as ours...however is it safe to have a nurse on duty that is ill? or a Nurse on duty who is overworked, I say NO, I will gladly take their shift for them to be off, because we all need to be well and healthy to help our patients. Taking all things into consideration nursing has come far, yet a long way to go...I think the majority of nursing shortage falls on the heads of the administration, but just MHO.
Nurses need to join forces and stick together, happy patients come's from happy nurses, who are not ill or overworked. I think the very idea of bringing in nurses who will accept less standards, pushes us back several years, but hey you know...just my opinion.
I don't see a real shortage. There is a shortage of people willing to 'work for the man' but most hospitals I've worked at can make a few phone calls and get enough agency help to cover -- they just don't want to.
I went into nursing for the money. I wasn't called to it and didn't have any particular desire to 'help people' or sell my empathy for boast. If it weren't for the allure of what I could make, I wouldn't have done it.
In fact, I always thought back in those days that the only reason to get a license was to have a backup career to fall on. I didn't want to be a nurse, I wanted insurance.
12+ years later, I'm still working in my 'back-up' career. And my major motivation is still bucks. I get paid well and want to be paid better.
To tie in the first paragraph, I don't see a real shortage but let it come - only under duress do things change. I say, LET IT RAIN!
As far as whether my desire to turn a buck has any relationship to how compassionate I am - that's BS.
Look, I'm in it for the money, but I realize that the job requirement that earns me that money requires both technical competence AND compassion
It does help that I'm fairly religious and being compassionate is more or less a life view.
But I disagree with the concept that wanting to be paid well and being compassionate are mutually exclusive.
And I stand as an example that some of the people who became nurses 'for the money' didn't wash out years ago. Instead of washing out, I became who I needed to be to as smith barney would say, 'earn it'.
A while back I posted a very straight forward posting on this topic...basically stating nurses should be in it for the heart not the money...however after seeing some points explained here I do need to state that I can see how a person would attempt nursing for the money and grow to love his/her career, if not could they last? Most likely not. Money had no motivation when I went into nursing, I did it for my heart, for my dad...he was paralyzed since I was 4 yrs old, I saw the good and bad in healthcare and wanted to make a difference. The state I lived in at the time paid nurses horribly. But I do have to say now, that some of my job choices, do directly relate to money in some aspect. That exist because I do need to support myself...don't have anyone to help, while being in school taking a higher paying job has definately helped out. However I couldn't do it for the money alone...because the job is so physically, mentally and emotionally demanding. But hey that is what I love about it.
Now regarding so many new nurses coming out and the comment Lizz made regarding feeling threatened...I do have to admit I do feel threatened by the oversea nurses. For these reasons, I believe everything nurses have fought for generation after generation stands to be at lost. I say this because most companies, would hire a nurse that isn't that big into being treated liked humans and less money, than the opposite. I think we deserve everything we have now and more, I don't want to see us loose our ground with nurses who will accept less in working conditions. It isn't right to the nurses in this country...the same reason I believe unions are a good thing...fight for better staffing, better schedules, better benefits.
It is very interesting to compare us to another civil service career, police officers...I was married to one...lol...anyhow that is how I know this stuff. Do you know that a Sheriff cannot deny a deputy time off based upon staffing ratios, yes held up in the supreme court. How many nurses are deprived of much needed time off??? How many nurses get reprimmanded for legitimate sick calls(not talking abusers here)???? Why must nurses constantly risk his/her life for a company???? When staffing agencies are available, paying OT is available. I have seen it done...hell I lost a per-diem job, I was still in training at the time...however I was sick twice, each time I was in the ER of the hospital, once for emergency surgery due to possible ectopic pregnancy, the next time to cut open the absecess that developed due to the surgery. So I was there however I was not really sick according to the current nurse manager. I attempted to fight it and was told sorry, I guess bad timing...wow I timed my emergencies. That would never fly for officers, they could grieve that to the fullest extent. However some may say safety...well officers do protect and save lives, not on such a critical level as ours...however is it safe to have a nurse on duty that is ill? or a Nurse on duty who is overworked, I say NO, I will gladly take their shift for them to be off, because we all need to be well and healthy to help our patients. Taking all things into consideration nursing has come far, yet a long way to go...I think the majority of nursing shortage falls on the heads of the administration, but just MHO.
Nurses need to join forces and stick together, happy patients come's from happy nurses, who are not ill or overworked. I think the very idea of bringing in nurses who will accept less standards, pushes us back several years, but hey you know...just my opinion.
Thanks for your input. I agree we all come into the nursing professions for various reasons, but we need to stick together and demand better treatment for ourselves. Nursing is a profession and we have to demand to treated as such. As for as foreign nurses, I cant say a lot about that. I am a new grad, but I am very concerned about the affects of importing lots of foreign nurses.
I do agree that unions may be the way to go, although I was instructed in nursing school that we should not support unions. I did not understand that view. I guess I will see why when I have some years under my belt as a nurse
although I was instructed in nursing school that we should not support unions. I did not understand that view. I guess I will see why when I have some years under my belt as a nurse
Don't be so quick to let that idea go. "They" taught us that because "unionization" is considered blue-collar, and we're supposed to be "above" that. Plus, there's the whole "strike" issue -- you're not supposed to walk out on your patients.
The funny thing is that other "professions" are unionized without the blue-collar stigma. Teachers form one of the most powerful unions, as any state governor will tell you -- and it is a requirement in all 50 states that you have a bachelor's degree to start teaching FT. In some areas that have been heavily affected by managed care, even some doctors have been unionizing . . . so, I say to the nay-sayers "gimme a break."
Many of these "instructors" come from an age where nursing school was like going to convent -- in some of the old nursing schools, you were literally locked in at a certain time of night, unless you were working in the hospital itself. To them, you have to martyr yourself to be worthy of the Nightingale tradition -- you'd have to be willing to do it for free if necessary.
I love my job, but I love eating more, and taking a daily bath -- and a few other things. If I ever "have" to do it for free, or if it becomes a nearly monastic lifestyle . . . again . . . well, I'll have to go look for something else.
We're not only noble because we're nurses -- we're noble because we work for a living. We have the right for decent working conditions and an appropriate wage.
First welcome to a rewarding career...regarding the entire union thing...See this is how I have personally seen it...of course nurses are taught not to want unions, well heck then we have something to fight for us, why would management want that or Department of Health. Every year we pay dues or license recert...where are those due's gone to? Not a single penny is spent on helping nurses, protect nurses against poor working conditions...the sole purpose of those dollars are to protect patients and the community, now don't get me wrong..patients need protect, some bad things have happened...however when will we pay into a system that helps us fight against nursing shortages, denied PTO, dismissals for being sick??? You won't see if from the nursing board even thou thoose things lead to patient safety issues.
So nurses need something to help us, yes we have our Liability Insurance...but you don't pay them to fight for PTO or nursing shortages you pay them if you are accused...hence we are litterly guilty until proven innocent, interesting in our judicial system isn't it? However unions we can pay dues to have them fight for PTO, nursing shortages, ridiculous accusations of reprimand(sick call), better benefits as in in health insurance. So therefore the few dollars that come out of my paycheck a month are well worth it. I have worked both places union and nonunion...The happier nurses are with unions, because they have something to fight for them...for the basic human/employee rights that nurses deserve. How many of you work without a break? How many of you forgot the last time you went to the bathroom while at work? These things are prevented with unions, it generally speaking is a ZERO tolerance level of such things. Don't you find it amazing that, empoyee rights, such as breaks, mean after 4 hours of work 15 min, after 6 hours of work 30 min lunc after 8 hours an additional 15 min...does that happen??? Not often but you know if employee's at McDonalds were denied a break action would be taken, not in nursing...it is live or die. That is what unions do for you, of course a company doesn't want them...no administration does. So I ask again are they bad??? When you have a voice, when your human rights your employee rights are protected and upheld...IMHO...heck no, one of the best additions to nursing...Now correct me if I am wrong but I believe the first union came to nursing at some point in the 90's after other labor industries had them for years. Yes I have worked nonunion places where they stated "open door", well that went as far as those words do, the manager didn't protect staff from improper justices. Interesting enough we perform a self sacrificing job, that litter sacrifices us. Obviously I fully support a union because they fully support an employee...IMO a patient is best taken care of by a happy nurse!
There are many opinions about unions, mine come from my own experience and contemplation on the matter. People are so hipped on patient safety that they don't realize the number one patient safety issue is short staffed and burned out nurses. That is why I am not in support of foreign nurses...I am sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings...I have a friend who came over as a foreign nurse due to culture's of the country she came from...she tolerates horrible BS at her employment, I try to explain that it isn't right but you cannot change an individuals culture or understand of life, I feel for her when she comes to me in tears...but honestly when one tolerates improper treatment it only opens the door for more improper treatment.
LOL Y'All are probally sick of my opinions by now...can't help it...I care not only about my patients but my fellow nurses and we deserve better treatment. The only way to have awarness of that is to verbalize it.
goingCoastal...unions prevent walk out on patients by scheduling STRIKES...company knows it is going to happen. If a group of nurses state we are striking such and such day, that is not walking out...that is just our given freedom in the US. Now I honestly have mixed feelings on the whole walk out thing..if a nurse just left and didn't tell anyone, yes she should be prosecuted..however if a nurse went to a supervisor and stated this isn't working i need help and didn't recieve help and then later went to the supervisor and stated she is leaving...she should not be in trouble. She did what she needed, she handed her patients over to her supervisor. I think the whole walk out prosecution thing is really a threat/scare tactic...a control issue to make nurses put up with more than what they should. Honestly I haven't seen a state board prosecute it unless no one was informed of the nurse leaving...correct me if I am wrong please. Again MHO. I love the "above that" statement from them, how can one be above something when one is treated worse, almost like a dog??? LOL That goingcoastal I know is not from you...just made me laugh to think, I am some how "above" someone, no one is above anyone, let alone someone who is treated better with respect.
I would tell a person to look into their heart before they made that leap, because it's very difficult, mentally, physically, and emotionally.
It is, but I'm not really aware of any jobs that are "easy" and pay well. There are a lot of things I could have done, but none promised the amount of pay this one did with the shortest amount of education. Having said that, I highly underestimated the difficulty of nursing school, or nursing as a career -- but I don't really know of any "easy" jobs.
Physicians and lawyers -- the supposed top-eschelon of the "professional" world -- often have no control over the hours they work, if they're successful. I would never want to work they hours they do, and if I did, I'd probably match some of their paychecks. I've heard that argument, too, from nursing professors -- "don't take an hourly job -- insist on a salary."
No thanks. Again, after 10 years, I do enjoy what I do -- but I don't need other people's perceptions of "professionality" to make me feel secure in the workplace.
Thanks for your well-stated and informed observations and opinion. I happen to agree with you. To everyone who is hanging the artist because they can't find the picture, allow me to clarify. My point was that Nursing is not a career that a person should choose for the money aspect...ONLY. If any of you think that this should be the reason, you are selling yourselves short. I am not saying that the money and benefits are not important, quite the contrary. They are extremely important. We have to live also. But, if I wanted to pick a career purely based on making money, and not on something I felt I would love, I would tell a person to look into their heart before they made that leap, because it's very difficult, mentally, physically, and emotionally. It is also very rewarding, in its own way. That innate gift that many, not all, nurses possess, is unique and sets us apart. Look at other professionals...lawyers, PT's, PA's, Teachers, Accountants, etc. We're just different. Maybe in a self-sacrificing way - we tend to be!! That may be the issue. Personally, I don't think we make enough! For all the lives that we must account for, the liability and responsiblity on our shoulders, just one little error,or God Forbid,a huge one...it only takes a second of fatigue, or a missed order, or just being human, (we're not supposed to be), and we are done with our careers! Work too long, short-staffed, ill, without a break, etc, don't dare screw up. You have to love what you do, to expose yourself to this, hence "heart 101" prerequisite, or potential failure, or maybe, yes, you could venture into other aspects of nursing without direct patient care. You could become Managment and make the rules for the floor nurses, having 0 knowledge of what floor nurses actually deal with on a daily basis!! Yes, you may start with the wallet, but that heart should be in it somewhere! You can't be a "people phobe" and decide that nursing will pay the bills! I respect Nurses more than I can say, that was my point. This is not easy money: Nurses must: take all the heat, Think on their feet, restore a heartbeat, and deal with defeat. That is just in 5 minutes... Stop fighting yourselves! It's HUMAN to want the money, for godsakes, but you can make that with your brain in other places. You're special. Appreciate that about yourself.
marylyric
125 Posts
I agree with you. You have said a world of truth