Now I get why experience means everything yet nothing - page 7

Now I finally get why nursing experience can prove invaluable in NP school, yet actually means nothing. It appears that nursing experience gives a valuable base from which to relate but does... Read More

  1. by   zenman
    Quote from mindlor
    I very clearly posted the contact information for the school. Feel free to give her a call. She can hold her own, I assure you.....
    Do you have her email? If so please send it to me and I'll contact her. I want email as I want her response written down.
  2. by   zenman
    Quote from coast2coast

    With all due respect, you have no idea what kind of meaning I as a DE-NP derive from "handing out meds at walgreens" without having followed patients as a bedside RN. See my above paragraph ... I believe you when you say that your RN experience helped your NP development - but it's a bit egotistical to think that ONLY that type of experience gives rise to a good NP. We recently took opposite sides in the online education debate - I'll try to let go of my personal bias against online education if you can conceive of a safe NP without bedside RN experience. At the end of the day I think both of our opinions arise out of general ignorance and not malicious intent.

    I would love to see a change in the general attitude surrounding DE-NPs on AN.
    Everyone has to do what they have to do. It doesn't matter to me. Please tell me what "meaning" you have handing out meds and do you think it is not good experience to have had observed patients at the bedside rather than at office visits days or weeks apart. I also don't think that ONLY one type of program gives rise to a good NP. BUT, when you want to argue that prior experience doesn't help, then we can have a good argument...based on my extensive experience. I've never worked with a DE-NP but others have and have plenty of concern with the average DE-NP grad. You certainly can't say my opinion arises out of general ignorance..wait a minute...let me find's a note from an M.D., Ph.D. physician, "On the basis of this close and collaborative work, I can recommend Randy without hesitation. In terms of diagnostic acumen, applied psychopharmacology and interpersonal skills, I rank him among the top ten percent of all mental health clinicians I have known. Likewise, I rank him similarly on his interpersonal skills. He is well liked and respected by a wide variety of patients from different age groups and socioeconomic backgrounds. As well, he is uniformly liked and respected by his team members. Importantly, he has the ability as a clinician to remain uncommonly clear-headed and calm in the midst of acute mental health problems. In the past, besides continuing as a practicing psychiatrist, I have managed a very large medical group (100 physicians). On these bases, I believe I am able to render a reliable opinion concerning Randy's overall clinical performance, which I would rate as excellent to exceptional." Based on my experience I was able to work locums tenons right out of school, a position usually reserved for those with years of experience under their belt. I'm certainly not ignorant!
  3. by   mindlor
    [QUOTE=sirI;6265362]This particular subject never fails to generate passionate replies.

    In the past, every single thread on this subject has been closed due to TOS.......w/o fail.

    Please do not allow this thread to become a statistic, too.

    First and final warning.[/QUOTE

    I vote for thread closure....its going nowhere
  4. by   ImThatGuy
    You have got to realize that this is the exception rather than the rule. Read about the history of physician assistants, and you'll note that the role developed from seasoned, military medics. Next, read about the process of getting in modern PA programs, and you'll learn that the majority also require healthcare experience. Today, many paramedics go in and become PAs. Many respiratory therapists become PAs. Yes, even nurses become PAs.

    Quote from Patti_RN
    It also reinforces (for me, anyway) that NPs do have valuable experience that sets them apart from PAs. My classic example is a PA I know who majored in dance as an undergrad. She spent a few years trying to land paid dancing jobs, but realized that at her ripe old age of 28 she wasn't getting much work. So, she explored the possibilities for grad schools and employment possibilities outside standing on her toes, spinning and leaping. She decided that she'd be employable and make a great salary as an NP--but gee... that would mean she'd have to go to nursing school, pass the NCLEX, work for a few years to gain experience, apply to NP school, then spend 2 or 3 more years before she could actually be an NP. Instead she discovered the fast-track, easy, anyone-can-do-it method--Physician Assistant school! Two years later, she's qualified (on paper, anyway) to order tests, diagnose medical conditions, and prescribe medications! And to think, just two short years ago, she was pirouetting in her tutu!
  5. by   bsnanat2
    By "elders" I don't mean those chronologically older, but those who are more experienced. My baby sister precedes me by many years as a nurse and I will always double check myself if she questions something nursing related.
    There is no need to close the should never be afraid of healthy debate or differing points of view. Passion is good, being dogmatic is bad. Be always ready to listen and offer a solid defense for your position. If you find yourself upset and offended, you've already lost. Yes, we should all do our research, but remember that research involves more than just what the schools are selling. Much of what's out there is propaganda from one side or another. They have a product to move just like Wal-Mart. I appreciate the voices that don't agree with me because they make me think, re-examine my position and either accept a new point of view or become more sure of the one I already hold. Debate and differences are good. Who knows, we may come up with some good ideas in the process.
  6. by   mindlor
    You are of course correct. What gets me is the little things. Such as, someone stating that a school does not offer a certain program even though it has been clearly demonstrated that they are mistaken. Then, even in light of solid hard evidence, they continue to deny it. That level of ignorance just amazes me......

    There is really not much to discuss here. DE-MSNs are wide spread and becoming moreso.

    Does RN experience help a DE-NP? n some circumstances yes, perhaps in others it hurt.....

    Are DE-NP's going away. No.

    Are people who came before us going to be bitter? Yes

    What I do not get is that our friends at the NLN think DE-MSN programs are a great idea. The NLN and the ANA are the leaders, the thinkers and the cultivators of our profession. I look to them for guidance and they say DE-MSN and DE-NP's are a good thing.

    So am I not correct in that folks that are against DE-MSN really should be phoning up the NLN???

    Many are talking about PAs here as is that deal: you have to have a BS in some field. Then you need prereqs as follows, Chem I. Chem II, Physics I, Physics II, Organic Chem I, Organic Chem II, Calculus I, among others. The PA programs as they are essentially replicate the first two years of Med School. They are very very difficult and competitive to enter. Also, most of the good schools will not accept an applicant that does not have at least 2000 hours of some sort of healthcare experience.

    it is much much easier to get into NP school. This is of course based on my individual experience and research. I am sure somewhere out there are exceptions......
  7. by   mindlor
    Another thing that keeps popping up is that in 2015, NPs are going to need to have a DNP degree.

    I have been unable to substantiate this. if anyoone can provide official, clear evidence of this I would be greatful.

    Also, can an NP work as an RN of the need arises? I am thinking yes?
  8. by   SHGR
    bsnanat2, i really appreciated your original post because i think it brought a new way to look at apn education, and really validated my decision to pursue cns rather than fnp. when i tell people i am in a nursing graduate program the general assumption is that i am pursuing fnp and if not why not? that is the next step, right? not true! what you said about how the np track "changes your career rather than furthers it" was probably the final decision maker for me- i don't want to change my career. i love what i do. more skills? stronger theory base? 3 p's? bring them on!!! fnp? no, thanks.

    you have not only good ideas but you articulate them very well. it really makes me sad that people latch onto one piece of a post and turn it into an argument that has been hashed out to death elsewhere.

    i want to further this discussion about apn's and what it means for the future of nursing and leave the extreme polarization of the direct entry vs traditional at the door.
  9. by   bsnanat2
    I hear ya. I do wish that nursing could get away from the arguing and realize that, no matter how we got the letters, we are all RN's. I have no problem debating the merit of one route vs another amongst ourselves, but when those debates become 'public' I have a problem. No MD or PA would ever disparage another in front of people, but RN's will routinely say, "yeah, but she got her BSN from an easy program" or "yeah, but she's only an ASN nurse." Really??!!?? Nurses seem to have this self-loathing thing down to an art and that must change. In my opinion, the change needs to occur on two fronts: The basic entry for RN's should be the BSN with required course work in ethics and professionalism. The entry point for NP's (can't believe I'm saying this) should EVENTUALLY be the DNP, BUT NOT IN IT'S PRESENT FORM!!! The DNP must have more hard science and something akin to a true clinical residency. I do not believe that attaining a NP degree should be easy or convenient and too many schools are making it so. The issue is not whether or not the NP program is online or brick and mortar, but the content and rigor of the program. Call it what it is....some schools are just simply making it way too easy to get the NP degree. THAT!!! is what waters down the profession and the title. Whether a NP went direct-entry or twenty years in the trenches really doesn't matter because you will have to pass boards and you will be weeded out if you are incompetent. The only question is how many of these schools are turning out incompetent folks who will do 'reputation damage' to the profession before they are weeded out? The NLN and ANA seem to have occupied themselves with the mission of generating more reason for nurses to stay in school (and paying) longer as opposed to looking at what will really help the profession. Hopefully that will change. If nurses ever got organized, we would be unstoppable due to sheer numbers, but the MD's don't have to fight us - they know we'll continue to fight amongst ourselves, leaving them free to lobby to keep us there. One of the most powerful legislators in my state has a record of repeatedly killing or blocking NP-friendly regulations. She is chairperson of the legislature's health committee, so all laws on healthcare go through her. She is married to a physician and she is a Registered Nurse!! Self-hate?? Jealousy?? Whatever it is, it is ugly and not that uncommon. How many of you have had your orders challenged by a nurse because you, the NP, are "just a nurse like me"??
    Time for a change people.
  10. by   SHGR
    The other thing that is happening is that, we seem to think it is no longer good enough to be an RN. Not important enough, or what have you, so many good nurses are becoming NP's, or going into management, leaving direct patient care.

    Another example of infighting...we've initiated billing for nursing services. Some nursing staff refuse to bill- it's "not nice." What? Having to close our doors due to lack of funding is "not nice." Not getting a paycheck is "not nice." We nurses have duties added on by physicians that directly get them (MD's) a bigger paycheck- we don't see any of this, except for the aforementioned keeping open of our clinic doors. That's "not nice." Getting validated that we provide valuable services? NICE.

    You are right, we need to build up our profession. Infighting, especially in public - and google searches bring up AN all the time!!- is tearing us down.
  11. by   sirI
    Quote from mindlor
    Another thing that keeps popping up is that in 2015, NPs are going to need to have a DNP degree.

    I have been unable to substantiate this. if anyoone can provide official, clear evidence of this I would be greatful.

    Also, can an NP work as an RN of the need arises? I am thinking yes?
    The DNP issue and the NP working as RN need to be totally separate threads.

    The topic of this thread is about RN experience for the NP.
  12. by   Tinabeanrn
    Hi to the OP. I agree. It is very different. But I do appreciate my nursing back ground because I have learned nursing intuition and drive that I could not learned in school. I remember feeling the same way when I first began the NP program. I was keeping all my nursing school books and my friend that is a NP kept saying that those books would not help me with the NP program. I thought she was crazy! LOL, now I see. I also Love NP school and being a nurse in general and I am so glad that I stuck with it .
  13. by   myelin
    Quote from bsnanat2
    I do not believe that attaining a NP degree should be easy or convenient and too many schools are making it so.
    this. this this this this this. whenever I read about how someone is looking for a MSN/DNP program where they can get the degree in their spare time while they're working full time, I seriously cringe.