Nurse doing cocaine HELP

Roy Fokker, BSN, RN · Jul 16, 2005

Let me try and clear up my post.

I was saying that there are some posters here who have been defending this nurse's drug use-which i find beyond believeable.

I certainly defend the right of any person to ingest, smoke or mainline anything they wish. If they think it's "cool" to fry their neurons and kill their liver - that's their problem.

It is a tiresome debate, because there should be no debate; this nurse is probably a danger to her patients and should be reported. period.

This nurse is "probably" a danger to her patients if she was snorting coke on the job and if it's affecting her ability to do her job safely.

Anything that she does outside of her job is nobody's business. But if she comes to work high or somesuch and it's affecting the performance of her duties, she certainly needs to be reported.

I hope I clarrified my stand.

z's playa · Jul 16, 2005

Anything that she does outside of her job is nobody's business. But if she comes to work high or somesuch and it's affecting the performance of her duties, she certainly needs to be reported.

I agree with you Roy.

Z

gypsyatheart · Jul 16, 2005

"The Mgr will have that nurse doing drug screening faster than her head can spin!"
No... that's just not gonna happen. A sordid tale of a "nurse displaying illegal activity in public" sounds so compellingly damning, but it's simply not enough to cause HR and the nurse manager to initiate a drug screening. I'm amazed at the number of nurses who don't understand the concept of "due process". Maybe the nursing schools should be teaching a course in basic principles of law. One may not be compelled to give evidence against himself/herself in a workplace investigation unless there is reasonable suspicion that the person is using illegal narcotics. The definition of "reasonable suspicion" has filled tens of thousands of pages of court decisions, but suffice it to say that it does NOT exist where the only evidence in support of reasonable suspicion is the statement of a witness regarding what he/she has allegedly seen. Otherwise, every one of us could maliciously cause harm to innocent persons by claiming to see something we did not, thereby initiating an investigation into someone's life.
Large employers such as hospitals have to comply with a huge and complicated assortment of state and federal law regarding employees... like the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the ADA (disabilities), ADEA (age), OSHA regulations, the federal Drug Free Workplace Act of 1988, DOT drug testing regulations, and privacy laws and regulations. In addition, there is the matter of union contracts and other employee agreements. If hospitals do not properly initiate investigations of employee conduct, there are huge ramifications in the form of claims for defamation, infliction of emotional distress, assault and battery, malicious prosecution, invasion of privacy, and retaliation. The most common and accepted basis for beginning an investigation and requesting a drug test is well-documented evidence by a supervisor and fellow employees of work performance and behavioral problems on the job site.
I have advised both employers and employees regarding workplace investigations. One cannot demand that an employee take a drug test simply because a stranger has orally reported an employee's off-premises use of what appears to be a controlled substance. If you believe otherwise, you are sadly and naively mistaken.

Sorry, but you are the one who is mistaken and naive. Naive if you believe that a nurse mgr is not going to do a random drug screen if you are supected, at any time of any drug mis-use.I have seen it happen many times. In the case I illustrated in my post, one of the nurses involved was one of my "best friends"(at the time), one who ultimately lost her license to practice was pulled into our NM office and she told her that she was concerned about her behavior and that she had been given "information" re:her drug use. She was given an order to leave her post and report directly for a drug screen. When we agree to employment ,we had to sign an agreement for drug testing. As well, part of the employee handbook stated that the employer had the right, at any time to request random drug screening, for any reason. As well as do locker searches, etc. It was mandatory that we sign it. If we didn't we did not have a job in that facility. It was one of the only games in town, we didn't have much of a choice. And ultimately, what diffierence? If you are innocent, as they say, what's the problem? The problem is there only when people of guilty of breaking the law.

What do yu think the whole point of being an RN and working in a hospital is, anyway? It is to provide pt care, assure their safety. Not get high,perhaps on their drugs! :uhoh21: Like I said, I was involved in this situation, up close and personal. You may quote all the "law" you want, if you are a nurse and are suspected of doing drugs and management finds out, they will take you out....

targa · Jul 16, 2005

People can contract to do anything. I never stated otherwise.

Most hospitals have not required nurses to comply with an immediate and unexplained demand for drug testing. I doubt that many will be doing so in the future.

This might be possible where an employer is "the only game in town". Personally, I would never work for such a facility. By the way, since your behavior is spotless, how about let's install a camera or two in your home? Since you don't do anything wrong, what's the problem?

gypsyatheart · Jul 16, 2005

People can contract to do anything. I never stated otherwise.
Most hospitals have not required nurses to comply with an immediate and unexplained demand for drug testing. I doubt that many will be doing so in the future.
This might be possible where an employer is "the only game in town". Personally, I would never work for such a facility. By the way, since your behavior is spotless, how about let's install a camera or two in your home? Since you don't do anything wrong, what's the problem?

OK, what's that all about?? Sounds like you've been watching too many conspiracy theory movies! :rotfl: And, yeah, as an RN, I do hold myself to the professional standards of my profession....and the law, I might add.

I see you are yet a nursing student...have you even had any clinical rotations? It is not just in limited hospitals that this happens....I can guarantee you that if you are suspected of doing drugs, you will be tested...eventually, one way or another. I have seen many a nurse fall (nurses have a pretty high addiction rate, did you know that?), and they hang themselves one way or another. Believe it or not, or wait til you're getting your 1st nursing job and you're told to pee in a cup, w/somebody watching.... Oh, and wave for the cameras, cause they are everywhere...haven't you noticed...most definitely on the units.... :uhoh21:

targa · Jul 16, 2005

OK, what's that all about?? Sounds like you've been watching too many conspiracy theory movies! :rotfl: And, yeah, as an RN, I do hold myself to the professional standards of my profession....and the law, I might add.
I see you are yet a nursing student...have you even had any clinical rotations? It is not just in limited hospitals that this happens....I can guarantee you that if you are suspected of doing drugs, you will be tested...eventually, one way or another. I have seen many a nurse fall (nurses have a pretty high addiction rate, did you know that?), and they hang themselves one way or another. Believe it or not, or wait til you're getting your 1st nursing job and you're told to pee in a cup, w/somebody watching.... Oh, and wave for the cameras, cause they are everywhere...haven't you noticed...most definitely on the units.... :uhoh21:

I practiced law for over 22 years, and served as counsel to hospitals and other health-care organizations. I have written drug-testing guidelines for hospital facilities on the west coast. In addition, I continue to read professional journals and cases regarding employment law. I KNOW what goes on behind the scenes in most health-care workplaces. You know only about the demands made upon your co-workers, in one specific facility that contractually required compliance with a request for immediate testing.

Most facilities have no such requirement.

I don't have a problem with random drug testing, or testing of applicants for unfilled positions.

I really don't see what my status as a nursing student has to do with the discussion. What's your point?

leslie :-D · Jul 16, 2005

i think what targa is saying is that you just cannot drug test someone based on rumors of one doing drugs. there has to be reasonable suspicion that is observed by a staff member. but to say, "hey i heard joe schmo is doing coke" is not sufficient reason to give a drug test because then due process would indeed be violated.

leslie

targa · Jul 16, 2005

i think what targa is saying is that you just cannot drug test someone based on rumors of one doing drugs. there has to be reasonable suspicion that is observed by a staff member. but to say, "hey i heard joe schmo is doing coke" is not sufficient reason to give a drug test because then due process would indeed be violated.
leslie

EXACTLY

TypicalFish · Jul 16, 2005

1) Targa, you are taking this waaaaaay too personally

2) the ONLY THING ANYONE is saying here is that IF this nurse has a drug problem, she should not be responsible for PEOPLE'S LIVES-why aren't you concerned about the PATIENT'S legal rights?

3) Good Luck in nursing school, you'll need it.....

and personally, I hope that this link will be moved soon-this will just go 'round and 'round......

targa · Jul 16, 2005

1) Targa, you are taking this waaaaaay to personally
2) the ONLY THING ANYONE is saying here is that IF this nurse has a drug problem, she should not be responsible for PEOPLE'S LIVES-why are you concerned about the PATIENT'S legal rights?
3) Good Luck in nursing school, you'll need it.....

I don't take anything personally. I'm providing correct information to people who obviously are uninformed.

I would agree that if the nurse in question has a drug addiction which is affecting her job performance, she should not be taking care of patients. Where you and I apparently part company is the manner in which her employer should determine her suitability for continued employment.

I believe in due process for everyone, not just for everyone who is spotless in behavior. The end (ensuring a safe environment for patients) does not justify the means (forcing someone to take a drug test on the basis of rumor). You would feel the same way if you were falsely accused of doing something and your job was on the line.

By the way, I don't need luck... I'm doing quite well in nursing school. But thanks for the sentiment.

TypicalFish · Jul 17, 2005

Sorry-you over stepped your bounds with your snotty "people who are uniformed" comment. YOU are uninformed, because YOU are a nursing student-while you may have "advised"; it is nothing like being an actual healthcare professional. Many of the people you are calling uninformed have years and years of experience relating to this topic-in an actual working, knowledgeable capacity, you comment shows that you are little too upset over people suggesting that IF this nurse is impaired, she shouldn't be caring for patients. I do not see why you are so upset over this idea-it really shows how uninformed you are about the realities of nursing.

leslie :-D · Jul 17, 2005

earlier in this thread, i was also one of the posters who readily agreed to get this nurse tested.

but after reading targa's post, if none of her co-workers have reported her, the she shouldn't be subject to drug testing based on the rumor mill. i officially change my answer as i now understand on how intrusive and violating it would be. if this nurse is a cokehead, trust me, her behaviors will be apparent in the workplace and then would be handled accordingly.

thank you targa, for shedding a different light on this scenario. i understand and agree with you. and yes, we should be aware of the legal implications of any given situation, esp in nsg.

leslie