NG insertion Doctors VS nurses

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I'll start by saying I'm UK based, as I've noticed most here are US based.

I've been working in my Crit Care area for nearly 6months. We have consistent issues with getting medical cover, and, due to training changes, a lot of the junior doctors we have don't know how to place Art or Central lines (kind of important, ya'know!). So I've become used to treating blind for a few hours until an art-line is in place, lots of real close monitoring and quick responding.

What I'm not used to is a patient waiting 16hrs to get an NG inserted after one came out overnight. I get that overnight on a Saturday, an NG that just finished a feed isn't a high priority. I understand that, even though the night doctor promised he would do it, he passed it onto the day team. I even understand that they said they would wait until the patient had been reviewed on ward round.

What I don't understand is why that patient missed 3 medication rounds and the start of an increasing feed regime because the doctor was busy.

The main reason this annoys me is that I can insert NGs. The Trust I worked at before didn't require a doctor to sign off, and if the pH of the aspirate was suitable and there were no adverse symptoms with a small amount of water, this could be used.

I agree, that's not best practise, and a chest X-ray is much better, but surely I should be able to site the gosh-darn thing, so all the doctor has to do is (remotely, if necessary) order and review the chest X-ray .

Who sites NGs where you work? What training do you require if you site them? And how is the NG confirmed as correctly sited?

I'd like to see if my first Trust was a one off, or if I would be justified in requesting the training from my ward educator.

Glad it's not just me then! I feel much safer using the NGs here, with them being checked with x-ray. But I'd still like to be able to site them myself rather than rely on patchy medical cover.

Having spoken to the ward educator, I'd have to do a training package, then site X number of NGs under supervision. But, seeing as none of the other nurses have done the training...who's going to supervise me? If the doctors don't have time to site an NG, how are they going to have time to watch me do it?

It's just frustating, I feel like I'm providing sub-standard care to my patients when I know I have the ability to do more.

I'd heard a rumor that healthcare is different in Europe and the nurses have less autonomy, pay and respect. Apparently it's not a rumor....

Do you guys have CRNA's and CNRP's? You all get your bachelors degree as RN's right?

Specializes in ICU, Med-Surg, Float.
I'd heard a rumor that healthcare is different in Europe and the nurses have less autonomy, pay and respect. Apparently it's not a rumor....

Do you guys have CRNA's and CNRP's? You all get your bachelors degree as RN's right?

Yes we get our bachelors as an RN. This was brought in in the early 2000's. We only have nurse practitioners in ED, we don't have CRNA's at all, our anaesthetists are doctors, I think you call them anaesthesiologists? There is a post graduate qualification in nurse prescribing, and each nurse has a set of meds they can prescribe related to the particular field they work in. As for respect? I don't know. I know our working conditions are different, I might start a thread on it. For example, we don't have RT's in ICU, or CNA's. Nurses are 1:1 with a patient but do absolutely EVERY aspect of their care. On med/surg you can have up to 12 patients, and maybe one CNA for the whole floor of 32. Money is crap throughout Europe. A graduate nurse starts on 23k euros, rising in annual increments to 43k after 13 years, but that is before shift allowance, night duty, weekend pay etc. I do think our initial training is somewhat better however. A graduate nurse from ireland or the uk is pretty much good to go, they will have spent over a year in total on ward placements, and in ireland this includes a paid 9 month internship.

Specializes in SNF, Home Health & Hospice, L&D, Peds.

I am an LPN with 26 years of experience and I have placed many NG's I have done many on my own and actually no X-ray to check placement just aspirate and auscultation were my verification.

Specializes in Pediatrics, Women’s Health.

We insert all of our NGs with the exception of certain ENT patients (radical neck dissections, glossectomies, they usually place them in the OR and suture them in place). I was taught by another nurse while on orientation. We confirm first with an air bolus but always follow up with a chest xray. It seems crazy to me they want you to jump through all of those hoops just to drop an NG! Good for you for making the effort to change this practice, NG placement is most certainly within your abilities as an RN.

NG inserted by nurses, confirm by air and then chest X-RAY. The air thing is just for the nurse to know if she's in, if not then reinsert. We don't use it until confirmed by Chest x ray and doctor has read the xray.

I saw a doctor try an NG once because I couldn't get it. Neither could he and we actually had to consult a surgeon to help.

we routinely place NG or OG tubes on our vented pts and have it confirmed by air bolus heard by two RNs.

by the time we get around to using it for feeding the patient has had several X-rays

Hello BendyEm,

I assume by "site" the NG, you are referring to insertion? (that's not really a term we use in the US) Personally, I have been working ICU/Step-down for 3 years and have never even heard of an MD inserting an NGT, that's like having an MD get a peripheral line for you! LOL. Anyhow, here RN's insert the NG with a medical order, verify on the spot via the classic method (air bolus and auscultation of the stomach) and then order CXR by protocol to positively verify placement. Tube feeding/med administration can begin after CXR confirms placement, if need be. My hospital does not require any in-house education for insertion of NG tubes. Usually, the newbies will ask for support anyway, but we do not need any sort of approval by our educator to insert as our nursing license covers this. Good luck!

Specializes in ICU, Postpartum, Onc, PACU.
I'll start by saying I'm UK based, as I've noticed most here are US based.

I've been working in my Crit Care area for nearly 6months. We have consistent issues with getting medical cover, and, due to training changes, a lot of the junior doctors we have don't know how to place Art or Central lines (kind of important, ya'know!). So I've become used to treating blind for a few hours until an art-line is in place, lots of real close monitoring and quick responding.

What I'm not used to is a patient waiting 16hrs to get an NG inserted after one came out overnight. I get that overnight on a Saturday, an NG that just finished a feed isn't a high priority. I understand that, even though the night doctor promised he would do it, he passed it onto the day team. I even understand that they said they would wait until the patient had been reviewed on ward round.

What I don't understand is why that patient missed 3 medication rounds and the start of an increasing feed regime because the doctor was busy.

The main reason this annoys me is that I can insert NGs. The Trust I worked at before didn't require a doctor to sign off, and if the pH of the aspirate was suitable and there were no adverse symptoms with a small amount of water, this could be used.

I agree, that's not best practise, and a chest X-ray is much better, but surely I should be able to site the gosh-darn thing, so all the doctor has to do is (remotely, if necessary) order and review the chest X-ray .

Who sites NGs where you work? What training do you require if you site them? And how is the NG confirmed as correctly sited?

I'd like to see if my first Trust was a one off, or if I would be justified in requesting the training from my ward educator.

Nurses do them here in the US as far as I'm aware. If they're needing a specialized tube (like a weighted one, etc) then a doctor puts them in, but even then there are advanced practice nurses who can do more delicate ones.

I've had to have an xray to confirm placement before, but not always. It's odd that the nurses at your hospital can't do them though, because you're right, it's within our scope of practice.

xo

Specializes in ICU, Postpartum, Onc, PACU.
Lol, I know! When I trained back in the dark ages, we were allowed to put in both fine bore feeding tubes and ryles but not any more. I've no idea why this changed or even when! Also, nurses here aren't allowed to do arterial sticks, you don't do venepuncture until AFTER you've qualified and done an extra days training, and we also have to do extra training for male catheterisation! Backwards country is Ireland lol...

At some facilities the RNs do ABGs as well, which I've never done in ICU. It's usually the RT who does that. Extra training for male catheterization? :roflmao: That's awesome hahaha

I still want to move to Ireland:cheeky:

xo

Specializes in Flight Nursing, Emergency, Forensics, SANE, Trauma.

I've very rarely seen MDs place NGs. It's a nursing skill where I am. You obviously have to measure from tip of the nose to the tip of the earlobe to the xiphoid process to get an idea approximately how deep to drop it. Confirm with air bolus and auscultation over the stomach and aspirate gastric contents to inspect and test pH.

Honestly there is not reason you guys shouldn't be trained on them-- it's a nursing procedure and it's absolutely insane to have to wait on doctors who pass the buck. It's not good patient care and advocacy. (Obviously not your fault) but your policies need to be looked at for consideration of RN placement. Then have a portable CXR for the physicians to oogle if they decide not to drop it.

Specializes in Flight Nursing, Emergency, Forensics, SANE, Trauma.
Wow, I guess. Odd that male caths require additional training when female caths are demonstrably more difficult to perform in a strict, sterile fashion.

Coude catheters require a proper insertion technique... That may be why. It's a certain demographic and a specific direction they need placed in. Our patient care techs can do any catheter-- except coudes.

Specializes in Critical Care, Emergency, Education, Informatics.

Plain old generic NG/OG tubes, nurses can do it. Now feeding tubes that go past the stomach get put in by interventional radiology.

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