New LPNs going to EC....why not?

RN34TX · Sep 4, 2005

As a matter of fact I DO believe there has been a rash of errors made by incomopetent grads. I think that with all these fly by night publishing companies setting up shop and luring students in, that the result has been an increase in unqualified people entering the program. Back 3o years ago there was no internet to spread word like wildfire. Hey come take this short EMT class and we will have you on the fast track to RN!!!30 years ago was an entirely different era--think about it. Heck, 10 years ago was definately not as didgital either. Yes, because of the increased publicity about the program more and more people entered on the bare minimum basis.....and yes, eroors did occur in my opinion. Common sense would tell me that it was errors made by incompetence but also money is behind it too. I wouldn't want a short trained EMT being my nurse without any floor or patient care experience...just my honest opinion.

30 years ago, an old LPN instructor of mine graduated from the first ADN program in our state and the program received much criticism from many in the nursing community at the time. She was told that these new ADN RN's were going to end up becoming technicians of some sort because no one was going to view them or hire them as "real" RN's.

Obviously that never happened.

Mildred Montag who founded and developed ADN programs was also a part of the development of the EC associate degree program.

Times change and some people will stubbornly hold on to the old ideas (like RN's with associate degrees not being real nurses back then) but whether the "old school" faculty likes it or not, distance learning is only getting bigger and it's not disappearing any time soon.

I've been hearing about Colorado for over 2 years now and if they do intend to change their licensure rules for EC grads, they are sure dragging their feet about it. And although I keep hearing about "other states" following suit, aside from Kansas, where are they?

I really did honestly look for many days for any credible accounts of incompetent EC grads and can't believe that if there are so many out there and if it was the reason for CA's decision, where are the stories?

No newspaper or any other media in CA picked up on any of it?

I would suspect that the public would be very interested in hearing about a school that grants nursing degrees to underqualified and dangerous individuals.

Where are the stories and accounts about bad EC grads?

DYatesRN · Sep 5, 2005

30 years ago, an old LPN instructor of mine graduated from the first ADN program in our state and the program received much criticism from many in the nursing community at the time. She was told that these new ADN RN's were going to end up becoming technicians of some sort because no one was going to view them or hire them as "real" RN's.
Obviously that never happened.
Mildred Montag who founded and developed ADN programs was also a part of the development of the EC associate degree program.
Times change and some people will stubbornly hold on to the old ideas (like RN's with associate degrees not being real nurses back then) but whether the "old school" faculty likes it or not, distance learning is only getting bigger and it's not disappearing any time soon.
I've been hearing about Colorado for over 2 years now and if they do intend to change their licensure rules for EC grads, they are sure dragging their feet about it. And although I keep hearing about "other states" following suit, aside from Kansas, where are they?
I really did honestly look for many days for any credible accounts of incompetent EC grads and can't believe that if there are so many out there and if it was the reason for CA's decision, where are the stories?
No newspaper or any other media in CA picked up on any of it?
I would suspect that the public would be very interested in hearing about a school that grants nursing degrees to underqualified and dangerous individuals.
Where are the stories and accounts about bad EC grads?

I recently read where Wyoming is now questioning EC. An EC student on another board mentioned that she called the Wyoming board and asked them about EC, their response was not to enroll at this time as Wyoming and several other boards have been in contact discussing the issue. Colorado is going to come down with a ruling I fear--I just got licensed there and when I called they said they are still allowing EC grads but things may very well change in the near future. I investigated it further by visiting the wyoming board web site and clicking on the July meeting. You can read where EC visited them giving info about the program.

jsteine1 · Sep 5, 2005

There has a great deal of controversy about EC. As I understand it, it has to do with the number of clinical experience hours more than anything else. My thoughts are this: If this issue is going to result in licensure limitations for EC graduates, the concerned state boards should simply set up a clinical testing requirement in various locations throughout the states in question as part of the licensing process. I see two benefits to this: Valuable statistics can be gathered about the EC program in terms of how new graduates perform in the clinical settings which will result in modification of the EC program if needed with respect to clinical experience-or- it may put the entire issue to rest and allow graduates to pursue their careers anywhere in the US. :twocents:

RN34TX · Sep 5, 2005

I recently read where Wyoming is now questioning EC. An EC student on another board mentioned that she called the Wyoming board and asked them about EC, their response was not to enroll at this time as Wyoming and several other boards have been in contact discussing the issue. Colorado is going to come down with a ruling I fear--I just got licensed there and when I called they said they are still allowing EC grads but things may very well change in the near future. I investigated it further by visiting the wyoming board web site and clicking on the July meeting. You can read where EC visited them giving info about the program.

Texas also did the same thing shortly after the CA ruling and it too is on their board minutes. I called them when I noticed this and they told me that it was routine for other BON's to review programs when a state decides to make a ruling.

Texas rejected CA's opinion and ruled to continue to allow licensure without restriction.

Everyone has taken notice to CA's decision and has taken it seriously but at the same time it doesn't mean that they will blindly follow them without making up their own minds.

RN34TX · Sep 5, 2005

There has a great deal of controversy about EC. As I understand it, it has to do with the number of clinical experience hours more than anything else. My thoughts are this: If this issue is going to result in licensure limitations for EC graduates, the concerned state boards should simply set up a clinical testing requirement in various locations throughout the states in question as part of the licensing process. I see two benefits to this: Valuable statistics can be gathered about the EC program in terms of how new graduates perform in the clinical settings which will result in modification of the EC program if needed with respect to clinical experience-or- it may put the entire issue to rest and allow graduates to pursue their careers anywhere in the US.

Not a bad suggestion at all!

I personally am desperate to find any actual data/research on this issue and have yet to find anything more than the "there have been complaints" type of vague comments.

Where is the concrete evidence and research conducted?

As someone who is already a licensed RN, I'd be more than happy to participate in it and be evaluated for my abilities as an RN by any BON or other research group.

jsteine1 · Sep 6, 2005

Not a bad suggestion at all!
I personally am desperate to find any actual data/research on this issue and have yet to find anything more than the "there have been complaints" type of vague comments.
Where is the concrete evidence and research conducted?
As someone who is already a licensed RN, I'd be more than happy to participate in it and be evaluated for my abilities as an RN by any BON or other research group.

I also think that you will find excellent nurses and mediocre nurses everywhere and from any type of RN program. Some students aggressively seek out all possible clinical experiences and some do the minimum to get by, out of fear or lack of confidence inspiring supervision. You're right- all we hear is inuendo, vague complaints. In other words, where's the beef?? I did not go to EC, but I would like to know if there is specific information that documents why this reputation issue seems to live on.

DutchgirlRN, ASN, RN · Sep 6, 2005

I got my RN through Excelsior, then known as Regents, I think the program is great. My only advice would be to work in a med/surg setting while you're going through the program. It helps tremendously. Good Luck

chip193 · Sep 6, 2005

I have just the CPNE to complete and I now I find that 4 local hospitals will not hire any EC graduates with their RN.They say they are ineexperienced and dont possess the needed clinical skills. Also the only site left in California was Long Beach and they wouldnt renew their contract with EC.(EC didnt notify any of the students in California) I feel EC was deceptive. Although I plan to finish I am disappointed in the EC program. I have met several Califorrnia EC students that have no nursing experience or knowledge but have passed the required exams.No wonder EC has gotten the bad rap they have.

Conversely, I graduated in 4/04 and had four job offers. It depends on where you are. You need to look at your local job market.

And they were all ER...which is what I wanted!

DYatesRN · Sep 6, 2005

Texas also did the same thing shortly after the CA ruling and it too is on their board minutes. I called them when I noticed this and they told me that it was routine for other BON's to review programs when a state decides to make a ruling.
Texas rejected CA's opinion and ruled to continue to allow licensure without restriction.
Everyone has taken notice to CA's decision and has taken it seriously but at the same time it doesn't mean that they will blindly follow them without making up their own minds.

I never said they were blindly following them. I reported that another student on a different message board reported that she called the Wyoming board and they told her not to enroll because they were going to stop accepting EC students. I clearly stated this in my post. I also stated that after reading the post I researched the Wyoming board and read about EC attending one of there meetings. Please don't twist my written words. I am more than aware that each board of nursing operates independent of one another and traditionally evaluate things that impact their state. If you call Excelsior and speak with the state boards office they will tell you themselves that Colorado has been *saying* they are going to stop licensure in that state, but at the present moment they are still accepting them. Another fact to note is that some states have had very few (an honest handful of students) who graduated from EC and now that CA made their decision and more students are doing no-traditional learning...the states are looking deeper into it than before. Wyoming, Colorado, the Dakota's, Iowa...and several others have had very few EC grads. Kansas is one of those states that made some recent rulings and they have had only a handful of students...most being in the past year or so. You must also realize that with many other boards of nursing re-evaluating the program that we *may* see more decsions that affect EC grads nationwide. I personally feel that like another poster stated, the damage that has been done "is a day late and a dollar short." EC allowed several unqualified students into the program that had work place adjustment problems. The problem was magnified by several *school and Publishing companies* out to make money off the entire situation by recruiting as many as possible with dreams of obtaining their RN in record time with little experience. The college should have put the dollar behind their integrity...and possibly much of this hysteria could have been avoided. In EC's defense I also think that some level of $$$ was involved in the decision to ban EC grads in California. The school took away local revenue. My advice is to stay alert to what is happening in the states you wish to practice once you have completed the program. If you have doubts or are a frequent mover, then I do not recommend this program.

RN34TX · Sep 6, 2005

Didn't mean to twist your words around DYates RN.

As much as it may look like I'm trying to promote their program all over this board, that's not the case as I too, have plenty of complaints about the way they've run their program as well as how they've handled the recent CA decision.

But their has been so much misinfo and twisted half truth out there regarding this program that I feel that it's important for actual grads of the program such as myself to remain visible to those who are considering or are already enrolled in EC.

One of these twisted half truths is Kansas:

I've followed the Kansas ruling and wrote to multiple state board members in support of EC grads. They initially made a hasty decision to stop licensing any and all new EC grads without thinking about those that they'd already told could enroll in the program without trouble with licensure in KS down the road.

Then they had to deal with grads who'd already paid all their fees waiting to take the NCLEX who had no warning whatsoever that the rug was being pulled out from under them, as well as people in the middle of or even beginning their program who paid heavy enrollment and testing fees as well as time invested.

The KS BON did not anticipate, nor prepare for all of the confusion and heat that erupted upon their ruling and ended up having to cave in and modify their ruling to accommidate these students as there were plenty making noise and were very angry after being told they could be licensed in their state upon graduation.

Of course, no one here is going to tell anyone about that, just another blanket statement that Kansas no longer licenses EC grads.

People criticize CA for making a cut-off date but the way they handled it avoided the problems that happened to KS. It was publicized well enough in advance even on EC's own website and they no longer would accept applications for admission for CA students after the cut-off date.

That way no one was caught in the middle. Everyone had plenty of advance notice before investing time and money and those who already had invested would not be denied licensure.

I don't mean to twist your words around but you are one of those here who make a lot of general blanket statements, much of which is pure speculation.

Much of which is about the ever famous dangerous MA's and EMT's who got their RN through EC and are lurking around hospitals making multiple errors and hurting patients. Where is all of the data to support this? I know I've been looking for it and would welcome anyone to point me in the right direction because I have yet to find it.

Does it mean that I disagree with you on all of your comments such as the one about money possibly being a motivating factor for CA's decision?

No. I'd suspected the same thing from the beginning but I really don't know for a fact and haven't found any supporting data but it doesn't mean that I don't agree that it's possible.

DYatesRN · Sep 6, 2005

Didn't mean to twist your words around DYates RN.
As much as it may look like I'm trying to promote their program all over this board, that's not the case as I too, have plenty of complaints about the way they've run their program as well as how they've handled the recent CA decision.
But their has been so much misinfo and twisted half truth out there regarding this program that I feel that it's important for actual grads of the program such as myself to remain visible to those who are considering or are already enrolled in EC.
One of these twisted half truths is Kansas:
I've followed the Kansas ruling and wrote to multiple state board members in support of EC grads. They initially made a hasty decision to stop licensing any and all new EC grads without thinking about those that they'd already told could enroll in the program without trouble with licensure in KS down the road.
Then they had to deal with grads who'd already paid all their fees waiting to take the NCLEX who had no warning whatsoever that the rug was being pulled out from under them, as well as people in the middle of or even beginning their program who paid heavy enrollment and testing fees as well as time invested.
The KS BON did not anticipate, nor prepare for all of the confusion and heat that erupted upon their ruling and ended up having to cave in and modify their ruling to accommidate these students as there were plenty making noise and were very angry after being told they could be licensed in their state upon graduation.
Of course, no one here is going to tell anyone about that, just another blanket statement that Kansas no longer licenses EC grads.
People criticize CA for making a cut-off date but the way they handled it avoided the problems that happened to KS. It was publicized well enough in advance even on EC's own website and they no longer would accept applications for admission for CA students after the cut-off date.
That way no one was caught in the middle. Everyone had plenty of advance notice before investing time and money and those who already had invested would not be denied licensure.
I don't mean to twist your words around but you are one of those here who make a lot of general blanket statements, much of which is pure speculation.
Much of which is about the ever famous dangerous MA's and EMT's who got their RN through EC and are lurking around hospitals making multiple errors and hurting patients. Where is all of the data to support this? I know I've been looking for it and would welcome anyone to point me in the right direction because I have yet to find it.
Does it mean that I disagree with you on all of your comments such as the one about money possibly being a motivating factor for CA's decision?
No. I'd suspected the same thing from the beginning but I really don't know for a fact and haven't found any supporting data but it doesn't mean that I don't agree that it's possible.

It does not take a rocket scientist to speculate that some of the people who have gone through this program and others are very ill prepared. I think that EC once had a greater possibility of putting out unprepared nurses by letting underqualified individuals in the program. So your point is that because Kansas made a hasty ruling and people made a fuss they modified their decision??? Yes, we all know this--it is on the board's web site that you must have so many clinical hours before you can get licensed there. I once again never said they weren't allowed to practice there, I was saying that Kansas board was making decisions and questioning the degree. Perhaps you are misreading into posts. I have merely held to the fact that boards of nursing around the states are looking into the EC issue. While this may be a "blanket" statement , it bears watching. Maybe all of us don't plan or care to live or work in Texas. Kansas did take action to modify the licensure of EC grads in that state. People will always make a fuss over rulings--no matter what the ruling is...the point remains the same, once again EC became an investigation to another board. While we may not find much info regarding data related to EC grads performance after licensure, I remain confident that the California board banned them partially on hospital complaints of sub-performance. Going from a cna or ma to an RN in a busy hospital unit is a lille scary in my opinion. I commend the college for making entry changes but find it a little late. I am certainly glad that you promote the college across the board, that is welcome advertisement for them. I however, say proceed with caution. I did the program and can't go back to change that now, but certainly think LPN to RN programs really need a little more structure regarding clinical requirements that will sit well with all boards. Integrity should mean more than money.

RN34TX · Sep 7, 2005

It does not take a rocket scientist to speculate that some of the people who have gone through this program and others are very ill prepared. I think that EC once had a greater possibility of putting out unprepared nurses by letting underqualified individuals in the program. So your point is that because Kansas made a hasty ruling and people made a fuss they modified their decision??? Yes, we all know this--it is on the board's web site that you must have so many clinical hours before you can get licensed there. I once again never said they weren't allowed to practice there, I was saying that Kansas board was making decisions and questioning the degree. Perhaps you are misreading into posts. I have merely held to the fact that boards of nursing around the states are looking into the EC issue. While this may be a "blanket" statement , it bears watching. Maybe all of us don't plan or care to live or work in Texas. Kansas did take action to modify the licensure of EC grads in that state. People will always make a fuss over rulings--no matter what the ruling is...the point remains the same, once again EC became an investigation to another board. While we may not find much info regarding data related to EC grads performance after licensure, I remain confident that the California board banned them partially on hospital complaints of sub-performance. Going from a cna or ma to an RN in a busy hospital unit is a lille scary in my opinion. I commend the college for making entry changes but find it a little late. I am certainly glad that you promote the college across the board, that is welcome advertisement for them. I however, say proceed with caution. I did the program and can't go back to change that now, but certainly think LPN to RN programs really need a little more structure regarding clinical requirements that will sit well with all boards. Integrity should mean more than money.

Why did you say all of those things?

"I did the program and can't go back to change that now, but certainly think LPN to RN programs really need a little more structure regarding clinical requirements that will sit well with all boards."

I did the program too and also cannot go back and change it. Had I known at the time I'd enrolled that all of these people out here would be questioning my fitness to be an RN and possible barring of licensure in certain states, I wouldn't have done it. My partner wants to be an RN and wanted to do it the EC way like I did but I showed him the hateful rhetoric on this very board and told him that he needed to do it the traditional way because I wouldn't want him subject to the same hostility.

I also would like to see LVN-RN programs that would sit well with all boards.

"While we may not find much info regarding data related to EC grads performance after licensure, I remain confident that the California board banned them partially on hospital complaints of sub-performance."

Why do you remain confident of this? Do you see what I mean by your speculation? What grounds do you have to be so confident in CA's almighty ruling? You find nothing on your own, yet blindly believe EC grads are substandard because the CA BON made a ruling.

"Maybe all of us don't plan or care to live or work in Texas."

Well I'd hope not with an attitude like that. I never said anything about everyone coming to Texas, nor would I want any northern, east or west coast attitude invading here. I moved here to avoid it.

"I am certainly glad that you promote the college across the board, that is welcome advertisement for them."

Did I not just say that I've had my own misgivings about EC in my most recent post? You have a lot of nerve saying that "perhaps you've misread posts" when it's clear that it's you who have misread them.

Pay attention to what somebody posts before you start reflecting your hateful attitude about your own life choices.

I'm trying real hard to be nice before the moderators decide that if anyone has an opinion worth talking about that they will shut the thread down for some "cooling off period."

I'm happy that you have an opinion and it's time we started talking about what really bothers people about EC grads instead of dancing around it.