Instead of polling whether one is pro-choice or pro-life, I am going to do something different. I will try to use a less emotionally charged and hopefully more accurate terms - For/Against-Legalizing-Abortion (this thought was triggered by another member on this board in the partial abortion poll).
Here is the twist. The poll will ask you your feeling on abortion at different stages of development before the the mother gives birth. We stick to the clinical description so we are going to have zygote, embryo, and fetus. Oh, in the fetus case, the poll also put a special case for partial abortion.
Just so everyone is on the same page, follow are the definition of zyote, embryo, and fetus for the purpose of this poll.
Zygote - From conception to about 2 weeks. Toward the end of the zygote stage, it is probably about a millimeter in diameter. This is the stage before it is completely embedded in the uterine wall.
Embryo - Around week 3 to week 8. It is when the zygote is completely embedded in the uterine wall.
Fetus - Around weeks 9 till just before birth.
You can pick more than one choice in the poll also.
One more thing, when you vote "For", for example, it means you are for legalization abortion at that stage of development under all or most circumstances. If you feel it should not be legalized in most case with one or two exceptions, then pick "Against". If you have exceptions, then state your exceptions in the thread.
What else, when you vote "For" whatever, it just means you are for legalizing it, it does not necessary means you are "pro" it in terms of taking an active role to encourage it. So you may be for legalizing fetus abortion but you might even take an active role to discourage it, but the final decision is up to the person. So this poll is a little bit different, it is asking for "legalizing" it or not, not whether you are "pro" or "anti" abortion.
.....and I truly believe that life begins at conception.
For the "life begins at conception" crowd, ignoring the the obvious issue of life existing before conception, are you in favor of murder in the case of ectopic implantation? After all, nearly all discovered ectopics require medical intervention, which effectively ends the new life.
Yes, it is truly amazing! And good for her for saving their lives........or else she wouldn't have a daughter to worry about. Yes it would be the best thing if all children were wanted...........but there are so many people who do want them...........and I truly believe that life begins at conception. So no matter what, there is a baby growing inside of a pregnant woman, and because it doesn't "work" for her at them time, it's ok to end it's life? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. There are all kinds of horrible situations in life, but at the end, I would hope that my own daughter would do the right thing.....and I would support her all the way there. JMO.
Yes people want them. As long as they are healthy and white and not too old.
So, once again, we are starting in with the bold type and the raised voices and the nasty insinuations. Of course we couldn't possibly talk about common ground or options for decreasing unwanted pregnancy. As long as you can't put your differences aside and work to end unwanted pregnancies, you will be creating the perfect environment for abortions-lots of them! Too bad you can't put aside your pride, stop running in circles and screaming about your personal opinions long enough to actually help.
Yes people want them. As long as they are healthy and white and not too old.
So, once again, we are starting in with the bold type and the raised voices and the nasty insinuations. Of course we couldn't possibly talk about common ground or options for decreasing unwanted pregnancy. As long as you can't put your differences aside and work to end unwanted pregnancies, you will be creating the perfect environment for abortions-lots of them! Too bad you can't put aside your pride, stop running in circles and screaming about your personal opinions long enough to actually help.
No screaming intended..........the bold type was just to differentiate what I wrote from your quote. I'm sorry that you are taking this as a personal attack....it wasn't meant to be. Like I said, it is my opinion. And my opinion is that an unwanted pregnancy shouldn't be ended just because it's not convenient. That being said, I do believe that I can help. Sorry again that you were offended by my opinion.
For the "life begins at conception" crowd, ignoring the the obvious issue of life existing before conception, are you in favor of murder in the case of ectopic implantation? After all, nearly all discovered ectopics require medical intervention, which effectively ends the new life.
How do you work around this paradox?
This is a difficult issue, of course, but the intention of the removal of the ectopic pregnancy is not to kill the child but rather to save the mother. Furthermore, if the ectopic pregnancy is established in tube there's no way in hell the pregnancy will be viable. However, I beleive there's certain studies and research going on where transplant of the embryo/foetus to the uterus is becoming more stable (in monkies or something).
Is the embryo existing in an ectopic pregnancy human? Yes. Is it alive? Absolutely (unless its ruptured and died).
However, I find it rather poor behaviour on part of the pro-choice [to kill unborn children] crowd when they bring up these rare situations like ectopics, hydatiform moles, foetal abnormality and abortion to save the life of mother, usually PP churns out its little statistics showing that 97% of abortions are for "social" reasons. SO I think its a non-issue to bring up these issues in an attempt to show that abortion is needed.
As for women with septis from illegal abortions, quite frankly, if you're stupid enough to shove a coat hanger up your lady parts, attempt to get it through the cervix to dislodge something pro-choicers [to kill unborn children] often claim is the size of a ( . ) you don't need an abortion, you need a labotomy. Murder is illegal, that still happens, drug use is illegal, that still happens, if abortion were banned it will still happen - doesn't mean we should accept the "it will still happen" verbal diarrohea and not consider a ban.
With that said, I think women deserve better then abortion. Our founding feminists mothers were Pro-Life. The zealots of the 60s took over the true nature of feminism and polluted it with their "choice" abortion rhetoric! Women deserve so much better then to be conned into thinking the only way they can be equal is to kill their children! Bloody hell! Its 2009 for God's sake, why the hell do women have too choose between their career and their child, their schooling and their child, their finanical security and their child? If we're so great, if women are so powerful why the hell can't we have it all? A woman has to put so much on the line to abort her child, she's the one risking physical, emotional and spiritual health for what ends? To benefit the damn father? To get a better job? To further her education? To make another payment on the merc?
Just recently I cared for a young woman who's life has been royally munted by abortion! She's had three, and within days of each abortion she made a major suicide attemp! How the hell does that work? In NZL we have a somewhat strict system of abortion allowance, why wasn't her mental state picked up on? Why the hell is she drinking and drugging herself into obvivilon? If pro-choice [to kill unborn children] crowd really cared about women they'd be addressing these issues instead of fobbing it off as some kind of pro-life bullocks research to scare women away. If abortion is so liberating, so "normal" so "okay", why isn't Hallmark churning out "Happy Abortion Day" cards? Why is still such a tabboo? Why are so many doctors and nurses pro-life? Surely if we're all educated to the truth of the physical developments of those "blobs" and many of our lecturers and teachers have seen teh "bad old days" surely we'd all be pro-choice [to kill unborn children].
This is a difficult issue, of course, but the intention of the removal of the ectopic pregnancy is not to kill the child but rather to save the mother.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Furthermore, if the ectopic pregnancy is established in tube there's no way in hell the pregnancy will be viable. However, I beleive there's certain studies and research going on where transplant of the embryo/foetus to the uterus is becoming more stable (in monkies or something).
Is the embryo existing in an ectopic pregnancy human? Yes. Is it alive? Absolutely (unless its ruptured and died).
However, I find it rather poor behaviour on part of the pro-choice [to kill unborn children] crowd when they bring up these rare situations like ectopics, hydatiform moles, foetal abnormality and abortion to save the life of mother, usually PP churns out its little statistics showing that 97% of abortions are for "social" reasons. SO I think its a non-issue to bring up these issues in an attempt to show that abortion is needed.
This is not even close to what I'm arguing. If I wanted to belabor the point, I'd point out that ectopy isn't exactly rare, nor are fetal abnormalities (in itself another can of worms).
I'm just pointing out the ethical conflict of the position you put yourself in when you set your bar at conception: take two equally fertilized groups of cells the same age and kill them. If it's ectopic, one labels it a necessary medical intervention, but if it's intrauterine, one calls it murder.
This is discounting the fact that well over 60% of all fertilized eggs fail to implant or spontaneously abort naturally, making nature (and/or your god of choice depending on what you believe regarding our design) the biggest murderer of all. I've often pondered the theological perspective that the soul enters at conception. This would make +60% of the populations of heaven and/or hell filled with the souls of naturally aborted embryos, lol.
As for women with septis from illegal abortions, quite frankly, if you're stupid enough to shove a coat hanger up your lady parts, attempt to get it through the cervix to dislodge something pro-choicers [to kill unborn children] often claim is the size of a ( . ) you don't need an abortion, you need a labotomy.
What's a labotomy? Do you perhaps mean a lobotomy? I know your statement was in jest, but how do you expect women with prefrontal lobotomies to care for and raise their children? What's your exit strategy?
Murder is illegal, that still happens, drug use is illegal, that still happens, if abortion were banned it will still happen - doesn't mean we should accept the "it will still happen" verbal diarrohea and not consider a ban.
I never stated this as a reason. However, let's consider this. You make abortions illegal. What's your strategy for the increase in healthcare costs for treating patients for weeks of intensive care due to sepsis, increased taxpayer burden enforcing, prosecuting, and likely incarceration of aborters and those that aid and abet them, the shortage of viable foster families and adoptive parents (especially now that single parents and homosexuals are effectively banned from adopting in most states) to care for not only the potentially aborted children but also likely their numerous older siblings, and many other unforseen costs? What's your strategy?
That's not an argument based on ethics but instead one based on logistics, utilitarianism.
With that said, I think women deserve better then abortion.
Agreed.
If pro-choice [to kill unborn children] crowd really cared about women they'd be addressing these issues instead of fobbing it off as some kind of pro-life bullocks research to scare women away.
If the pro-life crowd really cared about women they'd be advocating proper and factually based sexual education in schools and allowing easy access to contraceptives, including emergency contraceptives.
If abortion is so liberating, so "normal" so "okay", why isn't Hallmark churning out "Happy Abortion Day" cards?
This is a strawman argument. Nobody, least of all me, advocates abortion as liberating or normal. I'm not a fan of it. I just don't want to see it made illegal.
Why is still such a tabboo?
Why is purchasing and consuming alcohol on a Sunday here in Texas still a taboo?
Why are so many doctors and nurses pro-life?
Citation needed.
Surely if we're all educated to the truth of the physical developments of those "blobs" and many of our lecturers and teachers have seen teh "bad old days" surely we'd all be pro-choice [to kill unborn children].
This is a conglomeration of so many different fallacies I don't even know where to begin. Essentially, there's no way to argue against "surely, if it were right I'd support it!". There just isn't.
The only thing that wins in an abortion is death!
What does this even mean? The only thing that wins each time you scratch your skin is death! All those poor bacteria, flicked off into the near vacuum of suburbia!
What does this even mean? The only thing that wins each time you scratch your skin is death! All those poor bacteria, flicked off into the near vacuum of suburbia!
I don't think that there is any comparison between bacteria and a human baby.
For myself I support prochoice. Not because the Supreme court as ruled this way. But I feel a woman should have the finally say in what happens to her body. I have never been faced with having to make this decision. But for me, Whatever I should choose should be totally and completely at my decision. If I wanted to have a child, I should have that right. If I should choose to terminate the pregnancy, then I should have that choice.
hypocaffeinemia, BSN, RN
1,381 Posts
For the "life begins at conception" crowd, ignoring the the obvious issue of life existing before conception, are you in favor of murder in the case of ectopic implantation? After all, nearly all discovered ectopics require medical intervention, which effectively ends the new life.
How do you work around this paradox?