I was cruising the hospital websites as I do everyday as a new grad and came across this:
The Department of Nursing at Massachusetts General Hospital is running a New Graduate RN ICU Residency Program for six months from April 2011 to September 2011. RN residents will be hired and trained to work successfully in an intensive care setting.
Qualified applicants MUST have:
- a Baccalaureate of Science Degree in Nursing
- a current MA RN license
- less than 10 months of professional RN experience in a healthcare setting
- completed a clinical practicum in an ICU or experience in a patient assistive role in an ICU.
RN Residents will be eligible for benefits and paid a salary of $11.44 per hour. The schedule will be 40 hours per week with five 8-hour shifts. Day/Night rotation with weekends and holidays required.
11.44 an hour? They can't be serious...can they? They pay their CNAs more!
It is the companies responsibility to train the workers it needs.
Since when??? Employers have no reponsibility to train a new nurse, only to orient that person to the policies of that institution. They are spending lots of $$ to train you, and the salary reflect that. I applaud MSG for taking the initiative to do this. It looks like there is no shortage of takers, either. An intership at this institution is worth it.
I'm not against the idea of an internship. However, it's one matter if students and new grads are aware that they have to complete an internship before they even decide to sign up for the program. At least everything is on the table. They can then decide. Furthermore, if a standard has been set with regard to pay scales for said interns, people can do some financial planning. But when a handful of facilities are arbitrarily setting low rates, while everyone else has the opportunity to make a decent wage, certainly, many of us would see a problem with that.
Also, at 11 dollars an hour, this wage does not even come close to meeting living costs. If you are expected to work 40 hours per week, that hardly leaves time to go and work a second job to make the difference, especially if you are cycling through shifts. I think part of these discussions should include the fact that many people chose nursing as a second career. Meaning, it is not realistic to assume when planning these internships that all students can be supported by family during this time. While an internship may have various beneficial aspects, if the wage is not comparable to costs of living, many people would opt not to choose nursing, simply because they could not afford to do so. So we would lose potentially valuable people.
For comparison's sake, in 1990, I made about the equivalent of 9 dollars per hour as a salaried employee. But...this is now 21 years later. As we all well know, costs for everything have skyrocketed.
I'm not against the idea of an internship. However, it's one matter if students and new grads are aware that they have to complete an internship before they even decide to sign up for the program. At least everything is on the table. They can then decide.
No one has to complete an internship. This in one hospital offering an alternative to NOT having a job at all. People don't have to apply if it's not something they don't want or can't do. Most new grads around here aren't making any money at all for more than 6 months anyway. Again, those new grads can keep looking for something else at another hospital if they aren't interested.
Yes I understand that. For me, the whole concept of one the one hand offering these new grads experience, while on the other, paying them pittance is what I find bothersome. They could at least offer something comparable to living. I'm sorry, this facility, while it may be top notch, is not the king. There are other excellent facilities out there, which will accept a new grad. Thankfully, I am not in this position, but I feel for these new grads that need work.
The other facilities around here are NOT accepting new grads and haven't been for years (except for a select few new grads), which is why some of us are arguing that it's better than nothing at all. There's a reason why so many people want to get into the big teaching hospitals in Boston. They are great places to work... if you can get in. It's definitely an unfortunate situation.
I was just reading about the benefits of internships (paid or unpaid) for graduate students in all disciplines -- and recalled my own experience as a research/teaching assistant for 4.5 years while in grad school. I made less than 50% of what I would have made working for a hospital (as a nurse with 12 years experience and an MSN) -- but that experience was what got me my first job as a new PhD. And the skills learned and practice in that assistant role are a significant part of my practice today.
Yes, I was poor for a while -- but I wouldn't trade that experience for anything. It was the best job I ever had. I loved it and learned so much that I value greatly.
Perhaps it's time for nursing to consider new models of education -- and of integrating new graduates into professional practice. Maybe we should look at how other professions do it -- such as medicine and law and engineering and the humanities ... etc. Many of those disciplines include interships (paid and/or unpaid) as part of the expected transition from student to professional. I believe we should have discussions of the various options so that a consensus can be reached about what level of pay is appropriate for people who looking to employers to "finish off" their education.
I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how internships really differ from clinicals. We already spend lots of time in school doing clinicals, including a final semester or quarter of really intense training. How does this differ from an internship?
I do take issue with you comparing nursing to getting a PhD. It's 2 completely different things. A lot of people choose to go into nursing as a second career (myself included), and went into it initially with the idea of having a stable income, among many other benefits. I had already spent many years being poor. The idea of sucking it up to be poor for "a little while" is a little insulting when I already made sacrifices just to get through school.
I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how internships really differ from clinicals. We already spend lots of time in school doing clinicals, including a final semester or quarter of really intense training. How does this differ from an internship?
QUOTE]
It depends on what school you go to. For most schools, clinical experiences are very different from professional practice. Students don't work full shifts, don't take a full assignment, and are not responsible for 100% of the patient care. Senior year preceptorships (capstone experiences, role transition courses, etc. ) help to bridge that gap, but are usually relative short and still don't give the student a full load of responsibility. Most important, not all students get those capstone experiences. For a sophisticated, specialized unit such as an ICU at MGH -- new grads are nowhere near prepared to function independently when they graduated and they require much more than just a couple of orientation classes and a few weeks with a preceptor. They require lengthy, in-depth educational programs to get up to speed. I don't see anything wrong with a hospital offering such a course to new grads who are interested in working in such a sophisticated environment -- and nothing wrong with expecting the "students" of that educational program to give something in return.
However ... as I have said repeatedly in this thread ... I believe that the salary figure for the MGH program is a little lower than it should be.
I am going to try to be brief as you all know how long winded I can be. No one is saying that internships are not good! And again it is not promoted as an internship, but a residency with a "salary" of 11.44. let's not forget that point. I totally agree that nursing education is really a mess and needs to be revamped. There should be an established curriculum that is the path for all nurses. 11.44 is an arbitrary figure..things could have been tweaked to raise that figure! No one is condemning the program itself, just critiquing the price tag which the majority say is low! It doesn't really have to get any deeper than that. It is an opportunity that isn't open to anyone anyway. You really can't have been a working RN to apply, and BSN only. BSN cuts out the majority of out of work new grads so most don't even have the option to take advantage. I am fascinated by those that think this could not have been implemented without absolutely any improvements. Again, reread all your own posts and see if you didn't think that the rate was even a little low. You can say it, we won't think any less of you! That is all I am interested in people acknowledging. "The rate is too damn low!"
The cold hard reality is that newly minted nurses (or any profession) are not productive. The MGH policy is simply a reflection of that fact. On the other hand, you could get a job as an unskilled laborer and be productive the very first day. Initial compensation for unskilled labor reflects that reality. I don't find my grasp of this concept incompatible with a desire to see nurses well compensated.
My hunch is that you can probably get a get a good feel for a poster's age/experience based on where they fall on this particular issue. This is not a criticism, just an observation. It's simply not unusual to pay a new employee a nominal amount until they get to the point where they are productive. As I noted before, if MGH paid $0.00/hr, and called this an unpaid internship, nobody would be upset. It's the fact that they offer an evidently insulting hourly rate for the training position that seems to strike an emotional chord.
I probably shouldn't say this since you're probably my competition , but this really shouldn't be an issue for you. Your priority now and for the next few years should be to land a position where you are challenged, and can learn as much as possible. Once you start becoming comfortable, look for another position where you are uncomfortable again. Become comfortable with being uncomfortable. After a few years of this type of experience, employers will be kicking down doors to get you on their staff. Good luck!
I also thought that nurses would have stood together on this issue. I unfortunately am sadly disappointed. Wouldn't it benefit nursing if we all strove for more money?
As I noted before, if MGH paid $0.00/hr, and called this an unpaid internship, nobody would be upset. It's the fact that they offer an evidently insulting hourly rate for the training position that seems to strike an emotional chord.
This was supposed to be the whole focus of the discussion! Thank you!
The irony is if MGH was offering an unpaid internship in the ICU to new grads, it probably wouldn't raise an eyebrow. For those that are curious about the intensity of the program, here's on old Boston Globe article giving an account a previous version of the program.
hey, it's me, canary in a coal mine--haven't heard from MGH yet. I just read this globe article and it is giving me PTSD as I did my immersion on Ellison 4. And I know ALL the nurses including the one who is the focus of this article when she was a new grad. She is still there and she is absolutely lovely. And she was very sweet to me during my immersion. Please note that I am not complaining about the $--not that money isn't important to me, but I have to decide that if taking this on is what I want to do. I should also mention that I am 52. And I have been offered a great job in hospice, which I really love and became even more compassionate about, based on my immersion in the ICU.
So, for me, take the $$ away from the issue.... For me, it's more the potential physical issues and also, what happens if I don't succeed in the program? Where will I be? My new position is days primarily and some on call.
, but this really shouldn't be an issue for you. Your priority now and for the next few years should be to land a position where you are challenged, and can learn as much as possible. Once you start becoming comfortable, look for another position where you are uncomfortable again. Become comfortable with being uncomfortable. After a few years of this type of experience, employers will be kicking down doors to get you on their staff. Good luck! 
RunningWithScissors
225 Posts
Since when??? Employers have no reponsibility to train a new nurse, only to orient that person to the policies of that institution. They are spending lots of $$ to train you, and the salary reflect that. I applaud MSG for taking the initiative to do this. It looks like there is no shortage of takers, either. An intership at this institution is worth it.