I saw the post earlier about the nurse getting confused as a CNA and the way she was treated, and I just had to say something about it. I'm a CNA, in a nursing home, and I get that kinda stuff all the time. I get treated with disrespect like I don't know anything, even though I know the residents better than most anyone else. There are some nurses who help and try not to disrespect me, but every now and then I get the feeling of distaste even from them. The truth is I do more actual care for these patients then anyone else in the field. Alot of nurses say they got into nursing because they wanted to take care of people, but the fact is they spend more time passing meds, and doing paperwork, and getting paid alot more for it, then the people who actually do the care. I'm sorry untill you wiped up someones BM, or vomit, or urine, can you really say you take care of those people. So if you want to do actual care every now and then try helping out a CNA.
Sorry but I get really bitter about the disrespect I receive constantly from the nurses. Heres an example. I have one nurse I work with and our personalities constantly conflict, shes from another country and has a very rude and arrogant attitude. One night I was having to stay late and work a shift I wasn't scheduled for, nurse K asked me if I had got urine output on one of our residents. I said no I was going to due it on rounds in a half hour, mind you I am quite busy at this time. She says well you need to go get it now because I need it before I go home in 10 min. Mind you she is quite not busy at this time, sitting and reading a magazine. Tell me why she couldn't get off her butt and get herself if it was important for her.
This same nurse has nearly killed a resident who was having a heart attack. She didn't care that I said the resident was having chest pains, trouble breathing, and high blood pressure. Her response was that the resident doesn't take her medication so this is whats going to happen. I didn't know this but I later found out that the resident had a prescription for nitro and ativan in cases like this. It took her at least an hour before she delivered the nitro and she never delivered the ativan. When I asked her how I could make the resident more comfortable, she again changed subject and said how this will happen because she doesn't take her medication. I responded that just because she doesn't take her medication doesn't mean we have to be cruel to her. I reported her behavior but shes still working here.
She also does stuff that makes it perfectly clear she doesn't get her hands dirty. She'll go out of her way to have me clean up something that she could have done herself. I get this from all the nurses but shes the worst. The fact is though that I'm not an idiot I have two bachelors degrees, and I'm going onto PA school. Sometimes I know what a resident needs better than the nurse does, and they should know that. And even the aides that only have a high school diploma or GED, most of them have enough common sense and are with a patient long enough to see things nurses can't.
A nurse could very easily do the role of a CNA on any given day, and many do so, but would a CNA even know where to start to fill in a nurse's job?
Oh, for crying out loud. I was quite specific about my experience being limited.
And I know I couldn't do a CNA's job. No one has taught me how. In six months I'll be an LPN, in another year an RN, and all of my training re: transfers and bed baths were done in a "lab" on plastic and with a physical therapist who spent 1 hour demonstrating how to assist a patient with some mobility.
And my experience has been that I have never seen a nurse do anything on the ward other than meds and documentation. Period. When my mother was in for a hip replacement last spring she learned to get on and off the bedpan herself, because no one - CNA or nurse - would answer the call bell.
Acknowledgement that we are not perfect isn't nastiness. It's reality, and permits us to honestly appraise our performance. But apparently a non-rose-colored-glasses look at some things that can, yes, be problems is too critical and painful for those who can't manage to separate the personal from the general.
Oh, and as to CNAs being able to fill a nurse's shoes? I'm gonna bet that, if you taught them to read the MAR, they could dispense meds. They do in a lot of state facilities. And, yes, they are capable of enough critical thinking to say, "Wow, that pink spot looks bad. I'd better turn her more frequently." even if unable to properly document "Risk for Impaired Skin Integrity re: Immobility and Incontinence."
We're not in rocket science. We freakin' take vitals, administer meds, watch for changes, and use a limited amount of discretion regarding when to perform those limited interventions available to us and when to call physicians. Most other direct patient care is left to the CNA. The more educated and credentialed nurse does, indeed, do more, but I hear a real inflated sense of self-importance around here.
And I know I couldn't do a CNA's job. No one has taught me how. In six months I'll be an LPN, in another year an RN, and all of my training re: transfers and bed baths were done in a "lab" on plastic and with a physical therapist who spent 1 hour demonstrating how to assist a patient with some mobility.
Providing basic care was taught at the RPN/LPN program I went to (in Canada), and yes I could and did do the job a CNA did do the job of a CNA plus met the responsibilities that I had as an RPN because I was employed at a facility that DID NOT utilize nursing assistants. RNs and RPNs/LPNs only provided patient care.
And my experience has been that I have never seen a nurse do anything on the ward other than meds and documentation. Period. When my mother was in for a hip replacement last spring she learned to get on and off the bedpan herself, because no one - CNA or nurse - would answer the call bell.
You should visit the unit I work on now as an RN, because RNs are not just passing meds and documenting, they are actually providing basic care including providing bedpans. Obvious staffing issues where you mother had her hip replacement.
Oh, and as to CNAs being able to fill a nurse's shoes? I'm gonna bet that, if you taught them to read the MAR, they could dispense meds. They do in a lot of state facilities. And, yes, they are capable of enough critical thinking to say, "Wow, that pink spot looks bad. I'd better turn her more frequently." even if unable to properly document "Risk for Impaired Skin Integrity re: Immobility and Incontinence."
We're not in rocket science. We freakin' take vitals, administer meds, watch for changes, and use a limited amount of discretion regarding when to perform those limited interventions available to us and when to call physicians. Most other direct patient care is left to the CNA. The more educated and credentialed nurse does, indeed, do more, but I hear a real inflated sense of self-importance around here.
You have a lot to learn about what an LPN and RN does. The job is not a simplistic as you seem to believe. I think you will realize that when you obtain your license and begin practicing as an LPN, as you said your experience is limited.
As others have stated respect is a two-way street. We should all be working as team.
Providing basic care was taught at the RPN/LPN program I went to (in Canada), and yes I could and did do the job a CNA did do the job of a CNA plus met the responsibilities that I had as an RPN because I was employed at a facility that DID NOT utilize nursing assistants. RNs and RPNs/LPNs only provided patient care.
You should visit the unit I work on now as an RN, because RNs are not just passing meds and documenting, they are actually providing basic care including providing bedpans. Obvious staffing issues where you mother had her hip replacement.
You have a lot to learn about what an LPN and RN does. The job is not a simplistic as you seem to believe. I think you will realize that when you obtain your license and begin practicing as an LPN, as you said your experience is limited.
As others have stated respect is a two-way street. We should all be working as team.
First of all, I have been taught basic care. I still think that I could not provide full physical care for 14 patients every day, and that under the American nursing education paradigm, we should all be taking CNA training as a requirement for licensure. The experienced CNA's taught this inexperienced nurse in training things every day.
Secondly, of course my mother's problem was a staffing problem. Please, tell me in what paradise you work in which staffing is not a problem.
Thirdly, my experience was in an LTC environment. And I believe I know what, in that environment, we do. And it ain't, there, rocket science.
Fifthly, stating that she could do HER stupid job but they sure can't do HER difficult one, in a thread started by someone who feels she is not being treated respectfully, totally reeks of elitism on the most pathetic scale, pathetic in that it's like the administrative assistant feeling superior to the secretary. It must be really hard to answer to someone who looks down on you so. I found that comment to be offensive in the extreme and would never dream of saying such a thing to someone.
Of course it all comes down to respect. That's as self-evident as the staffing problem when my mom had her surgery.
Oh, for crying out loud. I was quite specific about my experience being limited.
What in the world brought this attitude on?
I wasn't even replying to you. My post was to another. I have no idea what kind of experience limitations you have.
And I know I couldn't do a CNA's job. No one has taught me how. In six months I'll be an LPN, in another year an RN, and all of my training re: transfers and bed baths were done in a "lab" on plastic and with a physical therapist who spent 1 hour demonstrating how to assist a patient with some mobility.
What are they teaching you in your school if not some basic bedside care??
When I went to school, we did it all. Bathing, assisting, transferring, feeding, cleaning up, bowel/bladder care. You need that basic knowledge if you're going to be a nurse.
And my experience has been that I have never seen a nurse do anything on the ward other than meds and documentation. Period. When my mother was in for a hip replacement last spring she learned to get on and off the bedpan herself, because no one - CNA or nurse - would answer the call bell.
After you have been an LPN or an RN for 2 or 3 years, I'd like to ask you if all you ever do is "meds and documentation". Obviously, you do not know yet what a nurse does.
Acknowledgement that we are not perfect isn't nastiness. It's reality, and permits us to honestly appraise our performance. But apparently a non-rose-colored-glasses look at some things that can, yes, be problems is too critical and painful for those who can't manage to separate the personal from the general.
Who implied anyone was being nasty?
Oh, and as to CNAs being able to fill a nurse's shoes? I'm gonna bet that, if you taught them to read the MAR, they could dispense meds. They do in a lot of state facilities. And, yes, they are capable of enough critical thinking to say, "Wow, that pink spot looks bad. I'd better turn her more frequently." even if unable to properly document "Risk for Impaired Skin Integrity re: Immobility and Incontinence."
Sure pink spots indicate more frequent turning, of course, but a CNA being able to pass meds is altogether different. Sure they can read, but would they know the different side effects, and interactions of medications, when to hold a med, when to notify the doctor. Just because they can read the words on a medication sheet does not mean they can safely administer those meds.
We're not in rocket science. We freakin' take vitals, administer meds, watch for changes, and use a limited amount of discretion regarding when to perform those limited interventions available to us and when to call physicians. Most other direct patient care is left to the CNA. The more educated and credentialed nurse does, indeed, do more, but I hear a real inflated sense of self-importance around here.
I could do a CNA's job. I have done it. I worked as an aide for quite awhile before I went on to LPN school. And I could do it now. But in my current job, so much more responsibility has been placed upon myself and my co-workers that there is NO time to help our direct caregivers.
If you think you can't do it, and as you say, you haven't been taught how, then you may become the nurse that the OP is referring to. There are nurses who can't help because they don't know the first thing about what the people under her are supposed to be doing. If you don't know, I hope you find out, because there are many things they are supposed to do, and if they don't, you are responsible for it if it isn't done. You have to know what is going on with them, besides your own job. You need to know what the cna's job entails, so that you when you go into a patient's room, you can look around and know that this patient has had his basic care, is comfortable, clean and cared for.
Respect is a two way street. No one "owes" it to you. If you want it, try GIVING it---and try imagine walking in the other's shoes before you get too judgemental.
We have done tons of threads like this. THEY GET NOWHERE cause no one wins the old "CNA's are lazy; RN/LPN's are lazy" argument. It's very tired. We all have important roles to play. Let's just appreciate that eh?
Yes, and I think this thread is no different.
This sums up my beliefs:
There are some bad RNs/LPNs, but there are also many good RNs/LPNs.
There are some bad CNAs/techs, but there are also many good CNAs/techs.
The experiences of one person is not representative of all nursing. Further, no one experience is representative of the nursing profession.
I think everyone has their days where they just want to gripe to relieve stress (and I can understand that), but you have to be careful who you gripe TO. No one likes to be stereotyped.
First of all, I have been taught basic care. I still think that I could not provide full physical care for 14 patients every day, and that under the American nursing education paradigm, we should all be taking CNA training as a requirement for licensure. The experienced CNA's taught this inexperienced nurse in training things every day.
Absoultely an experienced CNA can teach an inexperienced nurse and even experienced nurses a thing or two (or three). I won't argue the fact that CNA training and working as a CNA would be beneficial to anyone wanting a career as a nurse. Having CNA training as a requirement for nurses could/would produce LPNs/RNs who would be EMPATHETIC, UNDERSTANDING, and APPRECIATIVE of what a CNA does. The question is: How would you go about creating that same empathy, understanding, and appreciation in a CNAs towards RNs/LPNs?
Secondly, of course my mother's problem was a staffing problem. Please, tell me in what paradise you work in which staffing is not a problem.
I didn't imply or state that I worked in "NURSING PARADISE." You stated that you never seen a nurse on a ward do anything but document and meds. I have taken care of hip replacements post-op, documentation and meds, along with the whole nine yards. You stated that no one -CNA or nurse, answered your mother's call light and she had to toilet herself. That is unacceptable and indicative of serious issues on that unit that includes CNAs, nurses, and management of that unit. BTW "NURSING PARADISE" does not exist, and no matter where a person winds up as a nurse/CNA there will be issues, staffing issues may only be one of the issues you deal with.
Thirdly, my experience was in an LTC environment. And I believe I know what, in that environment, we do. And it ain't, there, rocket science.
You stated that this was your first clinical experience. Clinicals are not the same as actually working a facility. You do not have any idea what goes on when it's business as usual and the students are not there. You do not know what dynamics have played in the past to create that work environment, whether it be good or bad. Having experienced clinicals as both an RPN/LPN and an RN student, I can tell you that there are a lot of things you will never know about a facility based on a clinical rotation. Policies and procedures differ from place to place. Job descriptions and their accompanying roles vary place to place. Different places do things differently. As a nurse who has had students on the unit, it is far from business as usual, a group of 5 -10 students does that. What they see is not what goes on when they are not there. No, it's not "rocket science," it's nursing, and it's not simple.
Fifthly, stating that she could do HER stupid job but they sure can't do HER difficult one, in a thread started by someone who feels she is not being treated respectfully, totally reeks of elitism on the most pathetic scale, pathetic in that it's like the administrative assistant feeling superior to the secretary. It must be really hard to answer to someone who looks down on you so.
You found it offensive because you added adjectives that were not there and assumed intent/implication on the part of the poster. The adjectives "stupid" and "difficult" are not there:
Originally Posted by LPN1974
Me, too.
A nurse could very easily do the role of a CNA on any given day, and many do so, but would a CNA even know where to start to fill in a nurse's job?
Being able to assume the role of CNA is something we are trained to do because there are times WE DO have to assume that role. This is not the only role nurses assume. Advocate, nurturer, teacher, assistant, implementor, manager, coordinator, translator, facilitator, mentor, supervisor, confidant, comforter, or simply a hand to hold or help. Can a CNA functions in any of these roles? Yes, they can function in some of these roles independently or in conjunction with nurses. However, and this is where conflict arises between CNA and nurses: their duties are limited to tasks delegated by the registered or licensed practical nurse. This is not elitism or arrogance, this is what you will find on any SBON in regards to CNAs, patient care techs/assistants, orderlies, or other UAPs. There is a line between "delegation" and "disrespectful dictating," there are some that do not know the difference. There is also personal perceptions that may interpret intent that is not there, and that can be colored by factors that are not in the workplace.
I found that comment to be offensive in the extreme and would never dream of saying such a thing to someone.
Oh, and as to CNAs being able to fill a nurse's shoes? I'm gonna bet that, if you taught them to read the MAR, they could dispense meds.
We're not in rocket science. We freakin' take vitals, administer meds, watch for changes, and use a limited amount of discretion regarding when to perform those limited interventions available to us and when to call physicians. Most other direct patient care is left to the CNA. The more educated and credentialed nurse does, indeed, do more, but I hear a real inflated sense of self-importance around here.
And my experience has been that I have never seen a nurse do anything on the ward other than meds and documentation. Period.
I have NEVER seen a nurse on the floor get her hands dirty.
However, I did get the feeling that the nurses would page a CNA from two floors over before wiping a bottom themselves.
Suesquatch, don't you see that these remarks could be interpreted in a negative way. I've been in the nursing profession for 14 years and this is not my attitude or the way I've practiced in the profession. I get my hands (and on occassion other parts) dirty. You will meet and work with in your career many wonderful CNAs and nurses. You will also met and work with some of the worst CNAs and nurses that fit some of the above descriptions. I sincerely hope it is the first group you encounter. I started my career with some of the best people who taught me so much and helped mold me into the nurse I am. That is what I would wish for any new nurse entering the profession.
Of course it all comes down to respect. That's as self-evident as the staffing problem when my mom had her surgery.
Your mother should have received far better care than she got. I would encourage you both to write to the administrators of this facility regarding your experience. ADVOCATE for future patients that may have to come to that unit.
At some point you will need to have a mutal respect among all disicplines you work with.
A nurse could very easily do the role of a CNA on any given day, and many do so, but would a CNA even know where to start to fill in a nurse's job?
No doubt some can but I can tell you as a new nurse there is no way I could do what CNA's do with the efficiency they do it. Could I give total, safe, and competant care to a patient? Sure I could. Could I do it for 10 and get it all done in an 8 hour shift? No, and I doubt any nurse could who has not worked as a CNA.
IMHO, CNA's are part of the glue that holds a floor together.
DtD, of course those comments could be interpreted negatively. I've met some very fine, noble nurses - yes, during the LTC rotation. They are hardworking and they care, but they were NOT going to do anything hands-on. Maybe they were wary of getting even more crap piled on, but it was not a baseless observation. And that was not simply my ignorant interpretation, but the assessment of my very experienced BSN-endowed instructors. Now, some of it was having their hands extremely full with two nurses to 28 patients, but that was the same ratio as to CNAs. And no one got the care they should because it simply wasn't humanly possible to provide it.
Look. I got pissed, and it was at my perception that someone who was just venting was being piled on and, yes, looked down upon for not being licensed. I know very well that I will be doing far more than passing meds and documenting - but I also know that, working for a state agency for the MR/DD population, which is what I will end up doing, I will be supervising unlicensed personnel who will be dispensing meds - under my license.
And yes, I was taught basic care, but not in nearly the depth and with remotely the hands-on aspect that the CNA gets. I can catheterize, the CNA can use the Hoyer hoist in her sleep. My point was that we can all learn from one another and that, while our work is valuable and highly specialized, we should refrain form taking ourselves too seriously and more importantly, becoming defensive when someone suggests that maybe, well, we're not as sensitive to the needs and feelings of our assistive personnel as we could be. Sometimes they feel dismissed and ignored, and that isn't good.
I liked my CNAs. They were always willing to help me and teach me, they were grateful for the additional hands we provided (as were the nurses). They work incredibly hard for lousy pay in a facility that can't keep people because they are so short-handed. Double shifts were common and mandatory for all staff. Of course, given that it was not private pay, and Medicaid/care provided a whopping $141 a day per patient, it isn't astonishing that our residents got short shrift.
And I love nursing. I love science and people, and this is a fabulous match.
Oh, and I'm 52 and this is yet another incarnation for me. So please bear with my not being too much of an innocent ingenue when it comes to speaking my mind and trusting my instincts.
DtD, of course those comments could be interpreted negatively. I've met some very fine, noble nurses - yes, during the LTC rotation. They are hardworking and they care, but they were NOT going to do anything hands-on. Maybe they were wary of getting even more crap piled on, but it was not a baseless observation. And that was not simply my ignorant interpretation, but the assessment of my very experienced BSN-endowed instructors. Now, some of it was having their hands extremely full with two nurses to 28 patients, but that was the same ratio as to CNAs. And no one got the care they should because it simply wasn't humanly possible to provide it.
Look. I got pissed, and it was at my perception that someone who was just venting was being piled on and, yes, looked down upon for not being licensed. I know very well that I will be doing far more than passing meds and documenting - but I also know that, working for a state agency for the MR/DD population, which is what I will end up doing, I will be supervising unlicensed personnel who will be dispensing meds - under my license.
And yes, I was taught basic care, but not in nearly the depth and with remotely the hands-on aspect that the CNA gets. I can catheterize, the CNA can use the Hoyer hoist in her sleep. My point was that we can all learn from one another and that, while our work is valuable and highly specialized, we should refrain form taking ourselves too seriously and more importantly, becoming defensive when someone suggests that maybe, well, we're not as sensitive to the needs and feelings of our assistive personnel as we could be. Sometimes they feel dismissed and ignored, and that isn't good.
I liked my CNAs. They were always willing to help me and teach me, they were grateful for the additional hands we provided (as were the nurses). They work incredibly hard for lousy pay in a facility that can't keep people because they are so short-handed. Double shifts were common and mandatory for all staff. Of course, given that it was not private pay, and Medicaid/care provided a whopping $141 a day per patient, it isn't astonishing that our residents got short shrift.
And I love nursing. I love science and people, and this is a fabulous match.
Oh, and I'm 52 and this is yet another incarnation for me. So please bear with my not being too much of an innocent ingenue when it comes to speaking my mind and trusting my instincts.
:)
We all learn from each other while in school and once we leave. Don't be surprised if the CNAs don't have you proficiently using that Hoyer lift in your sleep in no time. None of us do it alone. We all have our roles. It is so much easier when all pull together.
Unfortunately when facilities understaff it can add to or even create friction between CNAs and nurses. How can people effectively communicate or try to be understanding when all heck is breaking loose and everyone is frustrated? It's not always possible. Sometimes we're all just doing the best we can under the circumstances.
I think the point I was try to make is that we all at times feel frustrated, disrespected, overworked, overwhelmed, etc, and that we all need to remember that person next to us, is in the same boat with us.
Specializes in Case mgmt., rehab, (CRRN), LTC & psych.
People: there's a thread entitled 'Message from a CNA - Part 2'. It was started by the person who originally started this thread. She has revealed some new insights on this new thread just FYI...
SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN
10,263 Posts
Oh, for crying out loud. I was quite specific about my experience being limited.
And I know I couldn't do a CNA's job. No one has taught me how. In six months I'll be an LPN, in another year an RN, and all of my training re: transfers and bed baths were done in a "lab" on plastic and with a physical therapist who spent 1 hour demonstrating how to assist a patient with some mobility.
And my experience has been that I have never seen a nurse do anything on the ward other than meds and documentation. Period. When my mother was in for a hip replacement last spring she learned to get on and off the bedpan herself, because no one - CNA or nurse - would answer the call bell.
Acknowledgement that we are not perfect isn't nastiness. It's reality, and permits us to honestly appraise our performance. But apparently a non-rose-colored-glasses look at some things that can, yes, be problems is too critical and painful for those who can't manage to separate the personal from the general.
Oh, and as to CNAs being able to fill a nurse's shoes? I'm gonna bet that, if you taught them to read the MAR, they could dispense meds. They do in a lot of state facilities. And, yes, they are capable of enough critical thinking to say, "Wow, that pink spot looks bad. I'd better turn her more frequently." even if unable to properly document "Risk for Impaired Skin Integrity re: Immobility and Incontinence."
We're not in rocket science. We freakin' take vitals, administer meds, watch for changes, and use a limited amount of discretion regarding when to perform those limited interventions available to us and when to call physicians. Most other direct patient care is left to the CNA. The more educated and credentialed nurse does, indeed, do more, but I hear a real inflated sense of self-importance around here.