MD to NP

[Malenurse1235954]

I was looking on a PA website and they were discussing PA to MD bridges and if NPs could go this route. One PA commented on his/her view of NPs was that they have been giving physicians the finger for years so the AMA would never allow a NP to MD pathway.

However, NPs we might make a MD to NP bridge someday!!!!

I couldnt stop laughing

[Aromatic]

1200 per credit hour for np at mgh jeez. Not sure an np degree is worth like 100k in debt. But that was for the non nurse track but still. Looks like they are trying to get people that want to do pa school to do that. Then again pa school isn't cheap either

[BostonFNP, APRN]

1200 per credit hour for np at mgh jeez. Not sure an np degree is worth like 100k in debt. But that was for the non nurse track but still. Looks like they are trying to get people that want to do pa school to do that. Then again pa school isn't cheap either

They are pulling in a lot of people from PA school. I have two colleagues that went to IHP and both work in Boston hospitals, make more than 150k per year, and are receiving loan forgiveness. Big up front cost but also not a bad investment with time.

[AndersRN]

Hence why I said "similar".

I've never seen a NP program require physics as a prereq, not sure it would make much of a direct impact on practice.

Most quality NP programs require less chemistry than medical school, though they still require it, and often replace that with requirements for biostats and developmental psych as well as A&P1/2 which is covered within the medical curriculum.

I see... But it would be difficult to find someone who got into med school these days without taking Genetics and Biochemistry, which are strongly recommended...

[PG2018]

Hence why I said "similar".

I've never seen a NP program require physics as a prereq, not sure it would make much of a direct impact on practice.

Most quality NP programs require less chemistry than medical school, though they still require it, and often replace that with requirements for biostats and developmental psych as well as A&P1/2 which is covered within the medical curriculum.

I felt like A&P was too condensed. Once I took patho, I realized the gaps, and in taking patho I again realized the gaps. My "advanced" patho was too verbose to extract anything meaningful from although it did have better explanations. What I lacked was a biochemical background to enjoy deeper understanding.

[BostonFNP, APRN]

I felt like A&P was too condensed. Once I took patho, I realized the gaps, and in taking patho I again realized the gaps. My "advanced" patho was too verbose to extract anything meaningful from although it did have better explanations. What I lacked was a biochemical background to enjoy deeper understanding.

I am a firm believer in understanding physiology. When I teach, I place the strongest emphasis on the physiology and pathophysiology, because if you can understand that you can infer everything else from clinical presentation to medication effects. All too often students try and just memorize things when if they just learned the underlying mechanism they could remember it all with a fraction of the information.

[cleback]

Any quality program will have some mix of those classes as prerequisite.

For instance, Simmons DE-FNP program requirements: Nursing MSN: Direct Entry Program

They only require organic/inorganic chemistry, which are fulfilled by the first two semesters of college chem... as in chem 101 and chem 102. Basically, the prerequisites are met by the vast majority of BSN science coursework. It's a case of sounding more advanced than it really is.

On the contrary, med school prerequisites are more often than not chem 101&102, two semesters organic chem (which builds on the first year chem), plus biochem. And that's just chemistry. Let's not kid ourselves.

[BostonFNP, APRN]

They only require organic/inorganic chemistry, which are fulfilled by the first two semesters of college chem... as in chem 101 and chem 102. Basically, the prerequisites are met by the vast majority of BSN science coursework. It's a case of sounding more advanced than it really is.

On the contrary, med school prerequisites are more often than not chem 101&102, two semesters organic chem (which builds on the first year chem), plus biochem. And that's just chemistry. Let's not kid ourselves.

We can argue semantics and what "sounds more advanced" but there really isn't any point to it.

What is your undergraduate degree in? Your advanced degree?

Having gone through a top-tier pre-medical program undergrad, masters and doctoral level education, lecturing for both medicine and nursing, and precepting both medical and NP students, I have never seen any evidence that a more thab a functional/basic level of understanding of chemistry, biology, and psychology provides a distinct advantage to a novice provider. A basic understanding of science is a foundation on which directed applications can be taught.

[Jules A, MSN]

Did you go to RN-NP or DE-NP? It's the DE-NP programs which typically require these courses, though I am not sure why the RN-NP programs don't, more evidence of the lack of standardization and quality control.

John Hopkins: MSN: Entry into Nursing Practice | School of Nursing at Johns Hopkins University

Vanderbilt: MSN Admissions | Admissions | School of Nursing | Vanderbilt University

Mass General Hospital IHP: Direct-Entry MS in Nursing | MGH Institute of Health Professions

Thanks for responding. I did BSN to MS program for my PsychNP and had everything that Hopkins requires except biostats. Vanderbilt and Mass Gen have nothing different for the RN to NP program. I didn't see any additional science pre-requisites like organic and inorganic chemistry, biochemistry, microbiology, biostatistics, genetics, etc.

[MurseJJ]

Thanks for responding. I did BSN to MS program for my PsychNP and had everything that Hopkins requires except biostats. Vanderbilt and Mass Gen have nothing different for the RN to NP program. I didn't see any additional science pre-requisites like organic and inorganic chemistry, biochemistry, microbiology, biostatistics, genetics, etc.

In looking at those programs, the pre-requisite courses for the direct entry NP programs are basically the same as the pre-requisite courses I've typically seen for traditional BSN programs. Generally BSN programs will require as prerequisites (for those transferring into the clinical nursing curriculum), or cover within the program (for those beginning as freshman):

-a semester of Anatomy and a semester of Physiology, or A&P I and II

-Microbiology

-General Psychology

-Developmental Psychology

-Nutrition

-statistics and/or algebra

Some will also require a semester of chemistry (as mine did). Generally, the chemistry is not the chemistry for majors, but a chemistry for health professions or a combined inorganic, organic, and biochemistry survey course. Naturally those that take the majors chemistry courses (as I did) would be covered. BostonFNP posted an example of a direct entry program that asks for a semester of organic chemistry (not sure why they say that gen chem I and II covers orgo, as it doesn't), and a state school in my area also asks for orgo I for BSN transfer and second degree applicants. I haven't come across a program that asks for biochemistry, though it could be out there.

This is probably why RN-NP programs don't typically have pre-requisite courses (if they do it's usually health assessment and/or statistics within a certain time frame), because the direct entry prereqs have already been done by the RN applicants.

Medical schools typically require:

-General Biology I and II

-General Chemistry I and II

-Organic Chemistry I and II

-Physics I and II

-statistics and/or other math (usually Pre-Calc or Calc I)

What I have always wondered about is how do student and practicing NPs feel about an advanced anatomy course at the graduate level? Would that be helpful? Typically, an NP student has already had undergraduate anatomy, physiology, microbiology, pathophysiology, pharmacology, nutrition, and health assessment. NP programs have advanced pathophysiology, pharmacology, and health assessment (some also have advanced physiology as a separate course or as a combined advanced phys and patho course(s)). I think I've only come across one school that includes an advanced anatomy course in the ACNP curriculum, though I've come across a number of CRNA programs that have graduate anatomy. Just wondering actual NP thoughts about how helpful that would be.

[Aromatic]

Thus far gross anatomy has been pretty useful. One month in and we already have to find stuff like tiny little fractures on imaging and in anatomy lab we have cts mri and regular x rays and we have to be able to name each structure on them. And the cadaver dissections. We have to know deficits of every muscle that would occur from artery or nerve damage at a certain point, patient presentations of it, etc. hardest class so far. Even more so than the biochem

[AAC.271]

We can argue semantics and what "sounds more advanced" but there really isn't any point to it.

What is your undergraduate degree in? Your advanced degree?

Having gone through a top-tier pre-medical program undergrad, masters and doctoral level education, lecturing for both medicine and nursing, and precepting both medical and NP students, I have never seen any evidence that a more thab a functional/basic level of understanding of chemistry, biology, and psychology provides a distinct advantage to a novice provider. A basic understanding of science is a foundation on which directed applications can be taught.

I agree. There is an education bubble going on. We always talk about the time differences between post secondary education, but we should also take a look at secondary and primary education. There are an increasing number of high schools that specialize in health professions. As a person who went to a traditional high school, most of the crap that I learned was utterly useless. It's also silly that we have to learn chemistry, physics, biology in high school and have to repeat it again in university (I took premed courses and nursing courses).

With the provider shortage, there needs to be a complete rethinking of our education system. High schools should be more focused and specialized in teaching the hard sciences for aspiring healthcare providers and these classes should not be repeated at the undergraduate level because it is simply redundant.

I was an EMT in high school and we were just as competent as a college graduate EMT who took nursing classes (he switched majors after 2 years). The biggest fallacy shoved down our throats is EDUCATION=Competency and THAT IS NOT TRUE!!

[AAC.271]

Thus far gross anatomy has been pretty useful. One month in and we already have to find stuff like tiny little fractures on imaging and in anatomy lab we have cts mri and regular x rays and we have to be able to name each structure on them. And the cadaver dissections. We have to know deficits of every muscle that would occur from artery or nerve damage at a certain point, patient presentations of it, etc. hardest class so far. Even more so than the biochem

Very interesting NP going to MD. I hear that most of the diseases you learn you will never encounter in your life because many of the diseases you are taught have a 1 in a million chance. Do let us know if it is worth it. Congratulations on getting into medical school though.