Making students undress for clinicals is a violation of basic human rights.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Oct 1, 2004

Roland I understand what you're saying. But everyone will be in the same boat and you aren't going to be humilated. You're allowing your lack of self-esteem (i.e. not even looking at yourself or allowing your spouse to see you) to make you overly anxious.

It's a free country. You have the right to refuse to do anything as long as you can face the consequences, meaning you fail or fail to move on.

I haven't heard of anyone legally challenging it, most give in to their fears and go through with it. I too was very anxious about it, so I can relate. But never did I feel "humilated" and I hope if you go through with it you don't feel humilated either.

I hope you don't think I'm minimizing how you feel. Just trying to calm you down a bit. :)

weetziebat · Oct 1, 2004

Roland, I too can understand what you are feeling. We had to wear bathing suits in class when we were giving bed baths. But, for me, sports bras would be worse. They would flatten me to nothingness.

But, despite others being young, they probably have their own issues. We all (alright, most of us) prefer not being exposed in front of others. Especially folks you go to school with. But I never saw anyone in my class made to feel humiliated. We were all so conscious of being half naked ourselves no one was saying a word about anybody else. In fact, I think people were trying to be as supportive as possibe, cause they knew they were next.

And it is so true that it will really make you much more aware of how your patients may feel, and more insistent that curtains be drawn and their privacy respected. That is something best taught by experience. And despite them having the option to refuse, have you ever really had a patient who would refuse to be examined? Not much of an option if you want a diagnosis etc.

BTW - what did the student do whose religious beliefs prevented her from taking part in this? And, good luck. Please don't be so down on yourself.

chris_at_lucas_RN, RN · Oct 1, 2004

There's a reason they give you those classy little gowns in the hospital.

I'm with Tweety, in a way--I too had some strong visceral reactions to the extent of our "participation" in the bedbath exercise. (Didn't we have this little talk before?) We were allowed to wear our bathing suits. There's a really, really good reason why I don't swim anymore. Ever! :rotfl:

However, allowing the girls to be in their bras is not acceptable (IMHO). A bra is underclothing. A cover should be allowed. If it's not okay to wander around in, say, WalMart wearing only shorts and a sports bra, then students should be permitted to bring, or provided with, appropriate cover. Even a bath towel is better than nothing, right?

You may be thinking, this girl's off her feed. I'm not concerned about the sports bras, I'm concerned about me!

But yes I am, because, my friend, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Women should not be required to parade (essentially) around their classmates in their underwear. And if they should be covered, according to equal treatment, so should you.

Bring your own "johnny." (That's a new word for me--that's that smock thing.)

One of the cardinal rules of nursing is to respect clients' dignity. Another is do no harm.

Your dignity is being threatened, and you are experiencing a visceral stress reaction because of it.

This argument should be enough for any reasonable school administrator.

If nothing else, your community's standards probably suggest that it would not be appropriate for you, a settled mature adult male, to be able to view your younger female classmates parading around in their underwear. (No offense, but it has just occurred to me, a settled mature adult female, that your naked torso may be the least of your worries, if you are placed in that position!)

And you should not be punished with a lower grade for this, either.

On the upside, be glad you are a nursing student now, and not 50 years ago, like my Mom was. God only knows what they practiced on each other back then!!! :imbar

I also get a horrified feeling when I catch a glimpse of my bod in the mirror after a shower. I don't think I have low SE, I just have been distinctly distracted for the past 30 years while my body was going to pot, and reality is a shocker!

Take care, hang in there and if the worst should happen, you'll live through it, and you'll keep going. (But I hope you win this one.)

Roland · Oct 1, 2004

She did it anyway because her family was counting on her future income as a nurse. It almost caused her husband to divorce her (they were recent immigrent citizens from Africa). My point with this example is that an employer cannot make you do most things that conflict with legitimate religious beliefs so how come a public university can? In addition, in my case I can attest to the fact that this issue has caused me a great deal of psychological stress (indeed, I even dropped out of clinicals last year in part because I learned I would have to be given a bed bath, and I didn't even know about the assessment stuff). I have been told by my aunt who graduated from a diploma program many years ago that they had to practice starting CATHETERS on one another, and do blood draws on fellow students as well. She said this practice was finally stopped after OSHA stepped in. I wonder if a similar argument might be made concerning this issue.

Again, I would stress one key difference between the student and the patient. The patient has the RIGHT to refuse. Perhaps we need a national student bill of rights that embodies the same principals that are constantly espoused with regard to patients. Finally, I would add that while I'm sure the stress that you, and many other students felt was real, that it is exponentially amplified among those with certain personality types who happen to be out of shape, and middleaged. This is especially the case when they are put in a situation of dealing with those much younger than them in this context.

chris_at_lucas_RN, RN · Oct 1, 2004

My point with this example is that an employer cannot make you do most things that conflict with legitimate religious beliefs so how come a public university can?

Actually, an employer can make you do lots of things that you might feel infringes on your legitimate religious beliefs (like make you work on Sunday) and our choice is to find another job. So this argument is not likely to wash. Next.....

In addition, in my case I can attest to the fact that this issue has caused me a great deal of psychological stress (indeed, I even dropped out of clinicals last year in part because I learned I would have to be given a bed bath, and I didn't even know about the assessment stuff).

This is probably not a good road to go down, because when you start talking about damage you are moving in the direction of lawsuit. I think we can all agree that's a point of no return. At the very least, we can probably agree that this is something that would separate you from the good graces of your school and the nursing school administration, permanently. So let's not go there, either.

I have been told by my aunt who graduated from a diploma program many years ago that they had to practice starting CATHETERS on one another, and do blood draws on fellow students as well. She said this practice was finally stopped after OSHA stepped in. I wonder if a similar argument might be made concerning this issue.

There's a big difference. Those were "invasive" procedures. A bedbath (and if they didn't wash in your "bathing suit area" especially) isn't invasive, and neither is a physical assessment. Invasive procedures have the potential for introducing bacteria and therefore causing infection. I know you see the difference.

The patient has the RIGHT to refuse. Perhaps we need a national student bill of rights that embodies the same principals that are constantly espoused with regard to patients.

We do. Go to the NSNA website and find the Student's Bill of Rights. You'll be surprised what you find in there. Maybe something will be helpful.

Finally, I would add that while I'm sure the stress that you, and many other students felt was real, that it is exponentially amplified among those with certain personality types who happen to be out of shape, and middleaged. This is especially the case when they are put in a situation of dealing with those much younger than them in this context.

Roland. Roland!! ROLAND!!! Read my earlier post above. I think it is your strongest argument.

Good luck and calm down. It's going to be OK.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Oct 1, 2004

Roland, I was a guy who stunk all day because I wouldn't shower with the boys in school, so I understand. Now that I'm middle aged I'd rather have my gums scraped than go through nursing school bed baths again.

If you want to fight this I commend you, support you and applaud you. Good luck.

But I would also advise you not to care what other people think of how you look. They already know you are middle aged and obese, taking your shirt off isn't going to suddenly shock them into humiliating you. Any humilation you feel will be in your own head.

I know easier said than done. Good luck in whatever you do.

Dixielee, BSN, RN · Oct 1, 2004

When we did our assessment class, yes we had to be in a gown, but it was not done in front of the whole class. It was done discretely in a private area. When we practiced, it was just the two students, then for check off, it was with the teacher. BUT one of the things we were graded on was how well you were able to protect the patient privacy and the instructor took off major points if she saw a lot of skin! We were also allowed to choose our parter and of course we chose someone we were comfortable with. Hopefully your instructors will at least let you (and everyone ) do this discretely and not in front of everyone. I would balk at that as well.

saskrn · Oct 1, 2004

At least in my opinion. In my Assessment class we are required to take our shirts off (the girls can wear sports bras) for the cardiac, respiratory, and abdominal assessments. When, I was young and in shape doing this would have merely made me uncomfortable. Now that I'm middleaged, obese, and generally disgusting it is down right humiliating. I don't take my shirt off even in front of my wife, and I never even look at myself in the mirror when I get out of the shower without a shirt on. You can argue that this is not logical and might even be pathological, but I would assert that it's also my right. These feelings are exasperated by the fact that most of the students I am forced to work with are female between the ages of 18 and 22. Many will say that this teaches empathy for what patients have to go through all the time. This may or may not be the case, but there is one crucial difference. Patients, generally have the right to refuse any assessment, treatment, or procedure without being punished. As students it can be argued that we have such a right, but the price is that we fail if it is exercised (it would be like a school asserting that they don't require students to say the Pledge so long as they don't mind receiving an "F"). Although, this is not the situation in my case, I know of one person who's religious beliefs prevent her from being exposed in front of others in this manner. Thus, in her case her religious freedoms were also being impinged upon.
If nothing else they should offer the opportunity to be excused from the exercise (at least in terms of being examined). If this meant finding a "replacement", I would gladly be willing to shell out several hundred dollars to avoid the humiliation if this is what it took to find someone willing to be assessed in my place (and when I was younger, and in shape would have probably done it for $20.00 despite being shy).
I wonder if anyone has ever brought successful legal challenges to schools based upon this sort of objection?

This issue is a sore spot with me. When we had to do bed baths, etc., in school, I refused to do it since I had 3rd degree burn scars, and I thought they were no one's business! I told the instructor that, and it was not a problem.

I think if you feel strongly about this, you should fight for change! If you don't, the cycle will continue.

IMHO, it is embarrassing, degrading and none of their damn business to see you half naked. Why aren't they using patient gowns and similating a real hospital?

Good luck!

OBRNinTN · Oct 1, 2004

We had to do this too, and I was mortifired..but believe me, it was really no big deal once we did it. There are a select few people in my class who are young and beautiful...and I am not one of them. Somehow we managed to pull this off with dignity, which is I think the goal with our patients. It was a learning experience to be sure. And I agree with the above posters. If they can see you now, I doubt they are going to see you any different with your shirt off. We were all concentrating so hard on doing it right, I don't think any of us even noticed what the other people looked like. Something about having an instructor standing over you tends to shift our insecurities.

You will be fine, we all survived this skill. Although I understand your feelings,( I shared the same ones) try not to make it so big in your head...in actuality it was not that bad for me.

As a side note, It's kind of funny, we have a guy in our class who weighs around 375 lbs, and ironically, he was the one trying to quell the fears and insecurities of the rest of us! He said, "I just don't see what the big deal is..."

And once it was over...neither did I.

uk_nurse · Oct 1, 2004

OMG! i cant believe you do that in uni. That has shocked me. It is not done over here, no way! We have practical assessment books and things like that are carried out on your hospital placement with the consent of the patient. You have to have it signed off so mant times on every placement. I'm sure if that was done here in UK at uni there would be an uproar! I for one would certainly refuse.

OBRNinTN · Oct 1, 2004

oh yeah...I also wanted to add we wore tank tops and shorts...not bras....thinking of myself siiting there in a bra makes me want to crawl under the table! And some of our shorts were very long.

Hang in there! Good Luck!