LPN scope of practice a little too broad?(LONG)

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A little history,

I have been an LPN for approximately five years in the state of Arkansas, the first three of those in the adolescent/adult acute mental health setting. I quickly became disenfranchised with my role (pill pusher) and finally decided I would go back to school for my ASN.

I thought it would be in my best interest to gain some of my skills back before going back to school, so I applyed at a local hospital to work in their med/surg unit, I chose this hospital because it still did primary care nursing versus team. My orientation was very brief (approx. two twelve hour shifts) I was very uncomfortable given my lack of experience on medical floors but I am a quick learner and I caught on rather quickly.

I was quite frankly amazed at the amount of duties I was not only permited, but required to do. I explained to my NM that I had no experience inserting, maintaining or administering meds through an IV, CVL etc. I was promptly scheduled for what they call out here a LPN II class. The class consisted of two eight hour days of instruction on how to insert IV cathters, push meds, drop NG tube, maintain and draw from CVL and a few more things I don't remember.

Suffice it to say I didn't really feel comfortable doing all the things I was taught in 16 hours to sick REAL patients, so I would usually drag another nurse with me the first few times I performed a new procedure. I quickly realized that the buck stopped with me, I was responsible for ALL of this patients care, no RN safety net to fall back on. Yes I could go to the charge nurse if I was unsure about something etc., but if the proverbial ****** hit the fan it was my ass on the line.

I started to wonder if all this was copacetic with my scope of practice as an LPN, in Arkansas LPN's are technically not permited to "assess or evaluate" only report objective findings. Yet here I was doing admission assesments, head to toe assesments, neuro checks etc. Once a shift the RN was required to make one narrative entry in the chart, they would basically come by and write Pt. resting quietly, eyes closed 0 s/s of acute distress noted. (I worked night shift).

I called my state board and did various other reasearch and was basically told that the majority of duties I was performing were in my scope of practice as long as I was under the supervision of an RN. I guess supervision of an RN is a rather subjective term and the hospital justified it by having a "Charge Nurse".

Now don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the autonomy but then it struck me one day, here I am pushing morphine, dropping NG tubes filling out assesments, starting IV's etc. basically functioning as an RN with all the responsbility and legal liability minus hanging blood/blood products and doing care plans but have only received 16 hours training in a few traditionally RN type duties and am only being compensated as an LPN.

I began to wonder what if something really bad happened, I made a mistake or I didn't catch something in an assesment would the charge nurse have been responsible also, since I was technically working under the supervision of an RN? Why would an RN take that responsbility?

I soon after put in my two week notice, I had planned on leaving anyways due to the "new" unit manager refusing to hire nurses stating that 1:9 nurse to patient ratio was perfectly okay on a med/surg unit.

I hired on at a few agencies and eventually took a position at a Long term acute care facility (no not a nursing home, are average patient is on a vent, receiving TPN with a MRSA infected decube lol). This facility employed team nursing, and the average nurse to patient ration 2:7, 1 RN and 1 LPN to seven patients. I was only reponsible for PO meds, IVPB meds and chart checks, the RN was responsible for Nursing assesments, charting, IVP meds and dressing changes.

I am a little wiser now, I no longer wish to take full responsbility for patient care, yes I "CAN" start an IV, do an assesment, drop an NG tube, push IV narcotics etc. and many times I have been asked to by the RN I am working with but now I say NO and explain myself if the RN cares to hear my explanation. I am not compensated to do this, I have not received the amount of training you have to do this and most of all if I do it and screw it up its your ass for delegating it to me.

Am I wrong for thinking like this? Yes I will still assist a new RN with a difficult IV insertion etc. but I refuse to play RN while being compensated as an LPN! I am currently working towards receiving my ASN via excelsior, and once I pass state boards and am a Registered Nurse I will gladly take that responsbility, in the mean time I will gladly work under the SUPERVISION of my RN.

Specializes in Everything except surgery.
Originally posted by chad75

Insert an NG improperly and fill a patients lungs with Jevity or better yet perferated their lung and the morbidity rates jump a little higher then bathing :)

I feel by minmizing the dangers and training required to perform such procedures one would be doing thereselves and the patient a great diservice.

So in your logic, an LPN shouldn't be doing TFs, or giving even po meds, and definitely not IVPB:D!

Just because you weren't taught to put down an NGT in school, doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't understand the dangers, or rationals to be able to learn the procedure for doing so. I would hope your education wasn't that limited.:)

Specializes in LTC,Hospice/palliative care,acute care.

Thanks,Brownie...I am getting a little bit tired now...Chad-I see alot of holes in your logic.A point I was trying to make is that anyone can be trained to perform almost any procedure-and how to "troubleshoot" and not harm the patient...Look at home care-families are performing more and more complex nursing tasks all of the time.Again-most of the tasks you mention are commonly included in the LPN curriculum here.And yes-in assisted living in Pa and in many other states aides are passing meds-"assisting" the residents with them.I have turned down a postion in a local assisted living for precisely the reasons you state.......I don't know the extent of their training exactly but I can bet it is not near as broad as the LPN curriculum was-which was much more then passing meds....Just how many hours of traning do you feel are adequate for the tasks you mention? I can bet that things like inserting an IV,NG and feeding and pulling a central line were covered in my program as well as they will be in your associates degree program.....Also-I had much more then 2 days of orientation into both of my acute care positions and would have left if I had felt I was not given enough-rather then jeopardize me patients lives and my license...A reasonable orientation period insures your employer that you are capable of fuctioning within your scope of practice....(PS-a local agency is paying LPN's $35.00/hr)

Specializes in Everything except surgery.

You're welcome:)! And you know what?? If you're willing to do corrections, I have heard their offering up to $44/hr for LPNs, and up to $55/h or more for RN! But not this lady...noooo corrections for me! Did a short term contract, and didn't last two days:chuckle!

Specializes in LTC,Hospice/palliative care,acute care.
Originally posted by Brownms46

You're welcome:)! And you know what?? If you're willing to do corrections, I have heard their offering up to $44/hr for LPNs, and up to $55/h or more for RN! But not this lady...noooo corrections for me! Did a short term contract, and didn't last two days:chuckle!

Not my bag either,Brownie....I did not like drug and alcohol,either...I am perfectly content in the LTC at this point in my life-and hope to retire from there in 12(count them!) 12 years...and then I am going to buy a big RV and just GO,man go! If my husband wants to stay in the house he is perfectly welcome..
So in your logic, an LPN shouldn't be doing TFs, or giving even po meds, and definitely not IVPB!

Hmm, I don't understand how you could have deduced that. I stated LPN's shouldn't do things they are not properly trained, compensated and recognized for.

LPN's are properly trained in LPN school to give medications, monitor TF's and administer a large variety of medications via IVPB route. At least in my state they are.

Just because you weren't taught to put down an NGT in school, doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't understand the dangers, or rationals to be able to learn the procedure for doing so. I would hope your education wasn't that limited

I feel were taking one procedure and beating it to death lol, learning dangers/rationals etc. to a procedure is one thing, we learned the dangers/rationales of Surgical repair of a disecting abdominal aortic aneurysm in LPN school that doesn't mean we get the scapal and go at it :) which by your logic above would be okay ? :) Yes there is always room to learn, and I think as nurses we do that every day.

A point I was trying to make is that anyone can be trained to perform almost any procedure-and how to "troubleshoot" and not harm the patient

I disagree, I've known a lot of people that couldn't be trained to perform procedures/troubleshoot and not harm the patient. Ten of them were my classmates which were discharged from my nursing school. Lets say its bizzaro world and you and brownms were trained on the above mentioned Repair of an abdominal aortic aneurysm, only this surgical procedure you would be trained in, you have to use your LPN medical skills to assess any other complications during this procedure since you didn't go to school/internship/externship like the MD's did. You can perform this procedure because you went to a workshop and have also seen it done.

You are completely liable for this procedure and any of its complications both legally and moraly, you will not receive any extra pay or recognition for performing this procedure you are still an LPN with the same pay scale and limited advancement opportunities in the hospital enviorment... Are you seeing anything wrong with this picture yet ? :)

Look at home care-families are performing more and more complex nursing tasks all of the time.

What is your point ? :) What does that have to do with me being appropriately trained, compensated and recognized for the responsbility and liability I encur by doing procedure x .

Again-most of the tasks you mention are commonly included in the LPN curriculum here

Hmm, I am not aware of any practical nursing program in this state or any other that trains the LPN to drop NG tubes, insert IV cathters, Push IV drugs, Pull Central lines etc. etc.

If they are teaching that now in practical nursing color me wrong :)

Just how many hours of traning do you feel are adequate for the tasks you mention

Signifigantly more then 16 :)

All I can say is this... if your BON or nurse practice acts allow you to do things that you are not comfortable doing and your employer WANTS you to do them, then you better learn to do them comfortably or get another job.

All I can say is this... if your BON or nurse practice acts allow you to do things that you are not comfortable doing and your employer WANTS you to do them, then you better learn to do them comfortably or get another job.

I chose another job, as I stated in my first post :) and it was not just a matter of me not being comfortable performing certain procedures, anyways I'm tired of repeating myself :)

Originally posted by chad75

Hmm, I am not aware of any practical nursing program in this state or any other that trains the LPN to drop NG tubes, insert IV cathters, Push IV drugs, Pull Central lines etc. etc.

If they are teaching that now in practical nursing color me wrong :)

Chad, get out your coloring markers dude. You've got some coloring to do. The US Army Practical Nurse course teaches IV insertion, Nasal Gastric Tube Insertion, and a plethora of other "advanced" skills that have been discussed on this thread. Back when I went through the course we were even taught IV cut downs, chest tube insertion, and suturing. Now granted some of that stuff is battle field nursing and won't translate to the civilian world (IV cut downs and chest tube insertions) but alot of it does, depending on the state you practice in. North Carolina's scope of practice for LPNs includes IV push medications, hanging whole blood, NG tube insertion, Instertion of a supra pubic catheter, suturing, and the list goes on. The schools in this State teach these skills, to varying degrees, and test the student's abilites to ensure the skills were properly taught. You can't judge all LPN courses off of your course, nor all states Scopes of Practice off of your state. All of the LPNs I know in NC would have no problems with the responsibilities you listed, but then they were taught how to perform and WHY they are performed. Also, education does not stop once you complete school, courses are offered all the time in mastering those skills that in your scope of practice that you may not have been trained in or have grown rusty through disuse.

Having said that, you were correct in not doing a procedure you weren't comfortable in performing. I won't do a proceedure I don't feel comfortable doing, even if it is within my scope of practice. Your hesitancy, however, shouldn't be mistaken with the concept that LPNs in general can't handle those tasks. If your state is progressive enough to list those "advanced" procedures within the LPN scope of practice then it has been determined that LPNs in that state can indeed handle those tasks. If a nurse is fortunate enough to practice in a more progressive state, then that nurse should take it upon themselves to learn those skills. I imagine it's a headache for traveling nurses having to learn the scopes of practice for all those different states! :eek:

Hi Sekar,

My colored markers have run dry :) lets keep this simple and not delve in military nursing which is a whole other ball of wax :).

Yes, scopes of practice vary by state as do practical nursing programs, you are the first person I've ever had tell me a "practical" nursing program (civilian based) trained LPN's on IV push medications, hanging whole blood, NG tube insertion, Instertion of a supra pubic catheter, suturing and also provided clinical real world experience to back up all the theory.

If that is the case what is the point in differentiating between and LPN and an RN ? I suggest all NC LPN's be immediately permitted to sit for RN boards :) Personally I went to a 12 month program, 8 hours a day five days a week that was very clinical heavy (as most LPN programs are). We were not taught those things.

As I previously said I don't feel LPN's were meant or "originally" trained to be responsible for giving the current care type we are in "some" situations. Here is the department of labors describtion of an LPN.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos102.htm

By the way, what the hell is an alchol rub ROFL :roll

Specializes in LTC,Hospice/palliative care,acute care.

The LPN may perform venipuncture and administer and withdraw intravenous fluids only if the following conditions are met:

(1) The LPN has received and satisfactorily completed a Board approved educational program which requires study and supervised clinical practice intended to provide training necessary for the performance of venipuncture and the administration and withdrawal of intravenous fluids as authorized by this section.

21.414. Interpretations regarding the functions of Licensed Practical Nurses (LPN)--statement of policy.

(a) Collection of venous blood samples fall within the scope of Licensed Practical Nurse (LPN) practice under 21.145(a) (relating to functions of the LPN).

(b) The following nursing practices fall within the scope of LPN practice under 21.145(b):

(1) Changing cystostomy tubes after the stoma heals.

(2) Changing gastrostomy tube when stoma is healed.

© The following nursing practices fall within the scope of LPN practice under 21.145(a) and (b):

(1) Insertion of nasogastric tubes.

(2) Changing outer tracheostomy tube after stoma is healed.

(3) Addition of medications to peritoneal dialysate in the care of those patients with chronic renal disease.

(4) Removal of sutures of a simple and uncomplicated nature.

Source

The provisions of this 21.414 adopted February 20, 1987, effective February 21, 1987, 17 Pa.B. 811.

>>>>>>.....From the Pa BON website....

Originally posted by chad75

Hi Sekar,

My colored markers have run dry :) lets keep this simple and not delve in military nursing which is a whole other ball of wax :).

Yes, scopes of practice vary by state as do practical nursing programs, you are the first person I've ever had tell me a "practical" nursing program (civilian based) trained LPN's on IV push medications, hanging whole blood, NG tube insertion, Instertion of a supra pubic catheter, suturing and also provided clinical real world experience to back up all the theory.

If that is the case what is the point in differentiating between and LPN and an RN ? I suggest all NC LPN's be immediately permitted to sit for RN boards :) Personally I went to a 12 month program, 8 hours a day five days a week that was very clinical heavy (as most LPN programs are). We were not taught those things.

As I previously said I don't feel LPN's were meant or "originally" trained to be responsible for giving the current care type we are in "some" situations. Here is the department of labors describtion of an LPN.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos102.htm

By the way, what the hell is an alchol rub ROFL :roll

The LPN school that taught all that was my wife's! It was civilian training and very cutting edge. I taught BCLS for them and was very impressed by their scope of training. I'm not saying they are all taught like that, we could only wish, but they are getting there. Personally I think all nursing schools, LPN and RN, should be taught with clinical real world experience to back up all the theory.

NC has made great strides in expanding the LPN scope of practice over the last 10 years. It used to be that LPNs couldn't even start an IV or take a verbal order. Thankfully things have progressed beyond that stone age mentality here. There are skills that the RN's do that the LPNs don't, like inserting intrauterine fetal scalp monitors or inserting external jugular IV catheters, but most skills are within the scope of practice for the LPN. Scopes of practice change and grow as does the nursing field in general. Nurses today, both RN and LPN, are taught things Nurses even 10 years ago were not taught. So if the role of the LPN has changed, I think it is a good thing. It evidences the growth in skills and professionalism of nursing in general.

While the lines between RN and LPN in NC are close, RNs do have more training, and more responsibility. There may very well be those LPNs that could pass the RN NCLEX, yes it can happen, but I wouldn't advocate it without the appropriate bridge training. I strongly believe in those "bridge" programs that take into account LPN training and experience when working towards an ADN or BSN. I don't believe retaking courses from jump street is required. Sorry, I degress :imbar Anyway, LPNs have grown since you and I went to school and continue to do so. That is why I don't believe that the scope of LPN practice is too broad. Cheers.

Specializes in Everything except surgery.

You know I just came back online, and without reading, just skimmiing the posts from Chad75, I have come to the conclusion, the logic presented has enough holes to make a spider web.

You know I'm starting to wonder about the starting of this thread at this point, because it's starting to make no sense at all.

What also makes no sense is that this person, states they're going thru the Excelsior program, which provides NO clinical experience in learning any of the skills, supposedly missing from the LPN programs! But somehow they will magically be able to feel comfortable starting IV, after clepping some tests! But doesn't feel comfortable, after receiving instruction thru a hospital based program, and actual clinical experience on the unit. But also feels that giving IVPB is allowable:confused: Makes no sense whatsoever!

But like I said to each his own, and there is where I will leave it:D

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