Published
A little history,
I have been an LPN for approximately five years in the state of Arkansas, the first three of those in the adolescent/adult acute mental health setting. I quickly became disenfranchised with my role (pill pusher) and finally decided I would go back to school for my ASN.
I thought it would be in my best interest to gain some of my skills back before going back to school, so I applyed at a local hospital to work in their med/surg unit, I chose this hospital because it still did primary care nursing versus team. My orientation was very brief (approx. two twelve hour shifts) I was very uncomfortable given my lack of experience on medical floors but I am a quick learner and I caught on rather quickly.
I was quite frankly amazed at the amount of duties I was not only permited, but required to do. I explained to my NM that I had no experience inserting, maintaining or administering meds through an IV, CVL etc. I was promptly scheduled for what they call out here a LPN II class. The class consisted of two eight hour days of instruction on how to insert IV cathters, push meds, drop NG tube, maintain and draw from CVL and a few more things I don't remember.
Suffice it to say I didn't really feel comfortable doing all the things I was taught in 16 hours to sick REAL patients, so I would usually drag another nurse with me the first few times I performed a new procedure. I quickly realized that the buck stopped with me, I was responsible for ALL of this patients care, no RN safety net to fall back on. Yes I could go to the charge nurse if I was unsure about something etc., but if the proverbial ****** hit the fan it was my ass on the line.
I started to wonder if all this was copacetic with my scope of practice as an LPN, in Arkansas LPN's are technically not permited to "assess or evaluate" only report objective findings. Yet here I was doing admission assesments, head to toe assesments, neuro checks etc. Once a shift the RN was required to make one narrative entry in the chart, they would basically come by and write Pt. resting quietly, eyes closed 0 s/s of acute distress noted. (I worked night shift).
I called my state board and did various other reasearch and was basically told that the majority of duties I was performing were in my scope of practice as long as I was under the supervision of an RN. I guess supervision of an RN is a rather subjective term and the hospital justified it by having a "Charge Nurse".
Now don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the autonomy but then it struck me one day, here I am pushing morphine, dropping NG tubes filling out assesments, starting IV's etc. basically functioning as an RN with all the responsbility and legal liability minus hanging blood/blood products and doing care plans but have only received 16 hours training in a few traditionally RN type duties and am only being compensated as an LPN.
I began to wonder what if something really bad happened, I made a mistake or I didn't catch something in an assesment would the charge nurse have been responsible also, since I was technically working under the supervision of an RN? Why would an RN take that responsbility?
I soon after put in my two week notice, I had planned on leaving anyways due to the "new" unit manager refusing to hire nurses stating that 1:9 nurse to patient ratio was perfectly okay on a med/surg unit.
I hired on at a few agencies and eventually took a position at a Long term acute care facility (no not a nursing home, are average patient is on a vent, receiving TPN with a MRSA infected decube lol). This facility employed team nursing, and the average nurse to patient ration 2:7, 1 RN and 1 LPN to seven patients. I was only reponsible for PO meds, IVPB meds and chart checks, the RN was responsible for Nursing assesments, charting, IVP meds and dressing changes.
I am a little wiser now, I no longer wish to take full responsbility for patient care, yes I "CAN" start an IV, do an assesment, drop an NG tube, push IV narcotics etc. and many times I have been asked to by the RN I am working with but now I say NO and explain myself if the RN cares to hear my explanation. I am not compensated to do this, I have not received the amount of training you have to do this and most of all if I do it and screw it up its your ass for delegating it to me.
Am I wrong for thinking like this? Yes I will still assist a new RN with a difficult IV insertion etc. but I refuse to play RN while being compensated as an LPN! I am currently working towards receiving my ASN via excelsior, and once I pass state boards and am a Registered Nurse I will gladly take that responsbility, in the mean time I will gladly work under the SUPERVISION of my RN.
Basically what I hear you saying is you don't feel you were trained sufficiently in LPN school to assume the duties of a nurse.
I was an LPN for 4 years before I went on RN school and I found MY LPN training prepared me to function quite well in the role you were describing. Perhaps your school was lax...mine however was not. Most LPN's I know are quite comfortable with the duties you describe, as they are basic medsurg nurses' duties.
I went on to RN school because I wanted more responsibliity, and I'd advise you to make sure you really want that responsibility before you invest all the time and energy in RN school..
Not around here-I have been an LPN since 1988 and have seen this happen at 2 out of 3 local hospitals...They do occassionally re-hire a few LPN's and aides but they are the first to go when the cut backs start
There must be an odd phenomena of a disproportionate amount of RN's in your area, I can quite literally go to any hospital I choose with in a 60 mile radius and get a job as an LPN at most of them I can pick what floor, days and shift I want to work, hell census in most of the hospitals is really low currently also so I might not get a 2000-4000$ sign on bonus .
I believe that the acute care system does need LPN's but that we must function to the fullest extent of our scope and training or we will become extinct
So you are basically willing to function as an RN at LPN pay/benefits for fear of your current position being phased out? I don't think that is a wise move, I suggest that hospitals use LPN's as they were originally intended, not as low payed RN's.
I do think that 16 hours of training more then prepares you to sink an NG ,start an IV or maintain and draw from a central line...I went to a really good nursing program-LPN's from that program are highly sought after in this part of the state-we are well prepared to function within our scope of practice
I disagree, 16 hours of theory in my opinion is no where near enough time to cover all the procedures we were being trained for.
I think everyone went to a really good LPN program, at least everyone I have known as an LPN talks that way, how their program was the hardest or they had the meaniest strictest nursing instructors lol. :)
I always say to each his own. Now me on the other hand, if I were going to thru Excelsior, and wanted to get some experience prior to taking the Clinicals and NCLEX, would want to have some experience doing those things, which will be required of me after finishing the program.
Since you're doing "PO meds, IVPB meds and chart checks", the RN has still delegated these tasks to you, and you're still preforming them under her/his supervision. In anyone of these areas, a mistake could be made, and could possibly cause harm to a pt. And when the crap hits the fan, you and the RN who delegated the task will still be held accountable.
But I do understand your unwillingness to not proceed under the conditions you were working in, and with so little experience doing so. You 're wise to know what you wish to be responsble for, and to take a stand on what you don't wish to be responsible for. This a decision that all nurses must make to feel comfortable where ever they practice.
However, just because you felt uncomfortable, or felt you weren't being paid for what you do, this doesn't say that this is the way all LP/VNs should feel. There are different opinions in different states board as to what an RN can or can do also. There are those RNs who can't be charge without a BSN in some hospitals, or who are ADNs and making less money as the BSNs, but they're still working side by side.
An CN/RN who makes an inappropriate assignment can be held accountable, whether the person she delegates to is an LPN or an RN. When delegating you must take into consideration the education level, and experience of the pt to who you're delgating to.
If the person you assign to take care of a pt. preforms a task/skill she hs never done before, and causes harm, the CN can also be held accountable for making an inappropriate assignment. So no matter whether you're an LPN or an RN, someone can still be held accountable for your mistakes
So it is you who must decide whether as an LPN or an RN, if you feel comfortable with an assignment, skill/task delegated or assigned to you.
I wish you all the best in your goal to obtain your RN.
Basically what I hear you saying is you don't feel you were trained sufficiently in LPN school to assume the duties of a nurse.
I was trained in LPN school to assume the standard duties of an LPN, we were not trained to access IV's, drop NG tubes pull central lines etc. I feel there is a reason we were not trained to do that and in many other states not only are you not required to do the above it is now allowed by the SBON.
I was an LPN for 4 years before I went on RN school and I found MY LPN training prepared me to function quite well in the role you were describing. Perhaps your school was lax...mine however was not. Most LPN's I know are quite comfortable with the duties you describe, as they are basic medsurg nurses' duties.
I functioned quite well in my role as an LPN also, it wasn't matter of me not being able to perform these procedures, it was a matter of training, liability and compensation.
I went on to RN school because I wanted more responsibliity, and I'd advise you to make sure you really want that responsibility before you invest all the time and energy in RN school..
When I am trained, compensated and recognized for taking the responsbility I will more then gladly accept it.
If you can explain to me why I should accept the responsbility before I am trained appropriately, compensated and recognized for it maybe I will change my mind :)
OOoh I forgot, the pay for my being an LPN, hasn't bothered me a bit! Especially making over $50,000 to $60,000 not including housing, utilities, license reimbursement, Travel pay, per diem, and benefits, as I did in the last two years:D! And about to take another assignment, making over with all the above, and a rental car:D My little 15mos program has served me very well:D:D:D!
You go Brownms46 ! :) According to http://www.salary.com the high end of the scale for LPN's in my area is 30k/year and RN's is 44k/year. I make around the 30k mark at my regualr FT job but I suppliment with agency/OT, but no where near 60k lol.
Mattsmom81, you stated
Most LPN's I know are quite comfortable with the duties you describe, as they are basic medsurg nurses' duties.
What do you consider a basic procedure? I guess maybe thats the difference in our opinion. I don't view any procedure that has a likelyhood of killing or injuring greatly if not done properly "basic".
Originally posted by chad75There must be an odd phenomena of a disproportionate amount of RN's in your area, I can quite literally go to any hospital I choose with in a 60 mile radius and get a job as an LPN at most of them I can pick what floor, days and shift I want to work, hell census in most of the hospitals is really low currently also so I might not get a 2000-4000$ sign on bonus
.
>>>>You will certainly find different trends all over the country....
So you are basically willing to function as an RN at LPN pay/benefits for fear of your current position being phased out? I don't think that is a wise move, I suggest that hospitals use LPN's as they were originally intended, not as low payed RN's.
>>>>>In Pa I am really not playing RN but getting paid as an LPN-my scope of practice is very clear and their are several areas of patient care that only an RN can be responsible for...I don't quite understand the meaning of your post----on one hand you say that LPN's are needed badly in acute care but then you imply that LPN's are not trained to do much more them pass meds and hang an IVPB and do a little bit of paperwork...I don't know what kind of course you took but I was trained to perform much more....I was trained to assess an IV site-for goodness sake-that does not require a phd....nor does inserting an NG or pulling a central line...It sounds as though your curriculum was sorely lacking-it sounds like you are more of a cna-here in Pa in assisted living facilites aides are passing meds ....I see that you have not posted much here on this board-maybe I am misinterpreting your intent here but I am inclined to think that this is a pot stirrer..I apologize if I am wrong..and you certainly make alot of valid points...The scope of practice for the cna,the lpn and the RN should be universal in this country....
I disagree, 16 hours of theory in my opinion is no where near enough time to cover all the procedures we were being trained for.
I think everyone went to a really good LPN program, at least everyone I have known as an LPN talks that way, how their program was the hardest or they had the meaniest strictest nursing instructors lol. :)
Dood-you can injure or kill someone with a freakin' enema.....and how many times have we read that a resident was left unattended in a bathtub and drowned in an LTC or group home? I bet it was not an RN giving that bath...Originally posted by chad75What do you consider a basic procedure? I guess maybe thats the difference in our opinion. I don't view any procedure that has a likelyhood of killing or injuring greatly if not done properly "basic".
FYI, to use the quote function copy the text you want to quote, hit the quote button above ^ , and right click and choose paste then respond to the quote below the quote. :)
I don't quite understand the meaning of your post----on one hand you say that LPN's are needed badly in acute care but then you imply that LPN's are not trained to do much more them pass meds and hang an IVPB and do a little bit of paperwork.
Maybe I wasn't being concise, I did sort of drift a little :) . I am not trying to downplay the role of the LPN, they are sorely needed especially during this day and age of the "nursing shortage." But the fact of the matter is they are not trained (at least in my state) to do a lot of the duties that they are currently required to do (In my State). The LPN role was never meant to be "lower payed RN" in my humble opinion. In "my" state and the hospital that "I" worked at that was the case, I've also noticed a trend of other hospitals following suit.
I don't know what kind of course you took but I was trained to perform much more....I was trained to assess an IV site-for goodness sake-that does not require a phd....nor does inserting an NG or pulling a central line
Monitoring an IV site does not equate to inserting an IV cathter, and I was not suggesting that Monitoring an IV site was above the ability or training of an LPN, please don't put words in my mouth :) Inserting and NG tube or pulling a central line requires training and if done improperly can result in death or great harm, I was not trained to do this LPN school, nor was anyone I have known (and they were trained in various states from CA to NY).
It sounds as though your curriculum was sorely lacking-it sounds like you are more of a cna-here in Pa
Umm okay lol, like I have said a few other times I went to school as was trained in standard LPN duties.
in assisted living facilites aides are passing meds
So is administering medication a basic procedure that they are teaching CNA's now in PA? So the aid knows why they are giving the medication, what they need to check before administering the medication, possible side effects/adverse reactions of the medication and what to do if a side effect or adverse reaction occurs? The CNA's are also trained on the 5r's of administering medication also?
Are the CNA's legally liable for the medication they administer, can they be brough up on charges of negligent homicide if they are grossly negligent in administering the medication even though they never received the education to appropriately administer medication? Do they loose their certification?
I see that you have not posted much here on this board-maybe I am misinterpreting your intent here but I am inclined to think that this is a pot stirrer..I apologize if I am wrong..and you certainly make alot of valid points
I have lurked for a while. What is wrong with a pot stirer ? We are all adults here who can state our opinions and why, and perhaps agree to disagree :) I haven't made any personal attacks on anyone, just pointing out holes in some people's logic :)
Originally posted by chad75You go Brownms46 ! :) According to http://www.salary.com the high end of the scale for LPN's in my area is 30k/year and RN's is 44k/year. I make around the 30k mark at my regualr FT job but I suppliment with agency/OT, but no where near 60k lol.
Mattsmom81, you stated
What do you consider a basic procedure? I guess maybe thats the difference in our opinion. I don't view any procedure that has a likelyhood of killing or injuring greatly if not done properly "basic".
First I work agency, and have done so for the last 22yrs. The rates of $27/hr up to $37/hr per diem, and $24.50 to 28/hr travel, depending on where it is. My ability to work in many different areas, and preform many skills, has allowed me to make a lot of money.
But I didn't come into nursing for the money, nor even because I wanted to be a nurse. I came into nursing to be able to competently take care of sick child. I just happened find out along the way I was good at this, and later found out I could make a lot of money doing it. Then even later I found out I could be paid even more by doing travel, which I now do.
And as far as being basic, with experience you build on the basic education you obtained in school, as a natural progression. That is why many areas have skill levels, such as LPN I II and III, and for the most part you're or should be compensated for the experence level you have.
I have worked side by side other travelers who are RNs, working the same shift, and unit, but received more money d/t experience and or length of time with an agency.
I have taken several positions in which I negotiated above the offer of the facility, and sited my experience level as the reason, and they agreed to increase the offer, which in one case was $4.hr higher! So the level of pay, at which one LPN may have accepted, doesn't apply if you're willing to demand what you feel you deserve for the work you do.
However this is not to say, that you or any other LPN who wishes more automony, shouldn't continue their education. Just stated to say, that while you're getting that education, you should be fairly compensated for what you're doing now. In other words, get the money you deserve for the work you do now, and the experience level you will need later:D
Dood-you can injure or kill someone with a freakin' enema.....and how many times have we read that a resident was left unattended in a bathtub and drowned in an LTC or group home? I bet it was not an RN giving that bath...
Key word you failed to recognize in my quote, "Likelyhood" administering an enema improperly or giving a resident a bath does not have a likelyhood of causing death.
Insert an NG improperly and fill a patients lungs with Jevity or better yet perferating their lung and the morbidity rates jump a little higher then bathing :)
I feel by minmizing the dangers and training required to perform such procedures one would be doing thereselves and the patient a great diservice.
chad75
112 Posts
That is one of the major points of my post (which I forgot to add in lol) the state board of nursing needs to be more specific in the scope of practice for the LPN.
Yes there are LPN's that have RN envy, and don't want to be LPN's yet don't want to put forth forth the effort to earn their RN.
I decided the LPN role wasn't for me, so I am changing that with more education, some people are perfectly happy in the LPN role but why would you want to basically perform all the duties and take all the responsbilities of an RN while only being educated and payed as an LPN?