Hi, I have just joined the forum, I have been qualified 2 years now.
I was wondering if anyone can help me with some insight with the following.
I was working a nightshift with another SN that is a jehovah witness, there was a patient who had been admitted earlier that day with a low HB and needed 3 x RCC transfusion asap. The nurse whom I was working with told me that because of her beliefs she would not check or have anything to do with this duty:o. I had to arrange for the hospital co-ordinator at night to come down to the ward to assist me in setting up and checking the RCC. This caused a delay in the pt treatment as I had to wait till the co-ordinater was free to assist:-{
My question is was she right to put her beliefs and values before patient care. I know that there is issues in connection to JW not wishing transfusions for themselves etc., but surely as a nurse practitionare she should be putting the pt needs first?
I wanted to challenge this but being newly qualified at the time I was a bit unsure of my knowledge in this:uhoh3:. The nurse co-ordinater was also reluctant to do this due to political correctness, I have since researched this and have found nothing that forbids them performing this duty for others. Maybe I am looking in the wrong places for this information.
Thanks in advance for any insight anyone can give:up:
My inlaw questioned me and she asked me would I give an adict drugs knowing he/she is a drug addict. This is the stance JW take on this case, and I completely understand that- but my stance is this. would not give a drug addict drugs nor would I ask anyone else to give the drug addict drugs for me. I think that wrong is wrong, and if I am going to be a nurse it dosn't matter what my religion is I need to perform the full duties of my job. If I can't then I need to concentrate on another area of nursing that will not allow me to compromise my stance. Now I could go alone with the game, and ask someone else to hang the blood for me, and they may actual hang the blood, but it dosnt change my personal beliefs I still feel it is wrong to participate in this act, so just because its done all the time or just because others do it for me dosnt make it correct. :paw:
I am sure that as a nurse, ever procedure you learned in school you do not perform it in the same detail manner that you learned. We all cut corners in the profession of nursing, now this dosn't mean that us cutting corners makes in right. At the end of the day the job still gets done and no one is harm in the outcome. So yes, a JW nurse could ask someone else to hang the blood and that someone else can say yes or no. But the JW nurse cannot blame anyone else for not doing something that they would not do themselves.
The Highlighted part.. TRUE...
I too dont want to force any JW to do what is against their belief.. It's just that for me, becoming a Nurse is a Calling, God has put YOU where you are for a reason and given you the abilities needed to make a difference. And as a Nurse, we should do our best and leave a trail that others can follow.. I too, am a CHRISTIAN.. and a belief that In everything we do, we should always put our heart and soul in everything we do.. Let God dictates unto our emotion what we, as a nurse with an obligation, do. I believe that, each and everyone of us has to give importance to Life. It is a God given gift. And as an Advocate of Life longevity, I will do my duty to preserve life.
I believe that "The worst REGRET we can have in life is not the WRONG things we did, But the RIGHT things we could have done but never did..":redbeathe
I see this topic as part of a larger debate, healthcare providers refusing to provide legal medical treatments based on their personal religious views.
I work in a busy PACU, 70-80 cases per day. I've hung blood and administered narcotics to drug addicts. Both were with necessary and legal orders. If I had a personal ethical problem with that I'd either have to impose on my coworkers to perform that part of my duties or find work in an area that didn't compromise my beliefs.
This post is in reply to the article posted by azhiker96 and not exactly her post itself:
I think the problem is that too many people see other religions' views as "out there" and dissasociate themselves with these people in an us v. them mentality. Of course "us" going to see their views as not in the best interest of the patient - according to thier view. No medical professional would perform something that they didn't feel was in the best interests of the patient. The discrepancy is in deciding what the best interests are. The religious belief itself is based on strong convictions of what is best for the patient.
We have a secular government that doesn't always align with religion. That was intentional and a good thing. As a result, the law doesn't always follow in line with one's religious beliefs. Don't confuse legality with morality. (What if the partial birth abortion bill had passed - would those then be moral?)
Religious freedom (freedom in general) is the protection of other's rights to thier own beliefs EVEN WHEN you may disagree with what those beliefs are. Protection that only applies when the majority feel that way isn't protection, it is by definition, not freedom.
My previous post was off topic as the moderator pointed out - that this topic is for JW and blood. I agree. The concept, in my opinion, that I was trying to make (of which the opposite opinion you have posted), is a valid one but perhaps belongs in a thread entitled, "Religious beliefs and medical treatment refusal."
I try to respect peoples beliefs. In healthcare, you leave your beliefs at the door. If there are things your not willing to do based on belief or religion, you should stay out of Nursing in my opinion. My religion does not allow smiling while speaking. So I will either, never get a job that might involve smiling, or smile while doing my job. Only two choices really. The PC level is insane. Let one person pick and choose, guess what, everybody gets to pick and choose.
It's a good thing for each individual to know her own conscience as it relates to her nursing practice. This allows her to scope out possibilities for conflict so that she and her peers and those in authority can come up with options and alternatives ahead of time to safeguard patient care.
What isn't so good is trying to lay out ethical boundaries for someone else based on what you believe. (I mean a general "you" throughout this post.)
Admonishing a JW nurse that she is wrong for refusing to hang blood because she isn't the recipient is to challenge her doctrinal convictions. Stating that a nurse shouldn't ask someone else to do what she feels is wrong for herself is, again, to insert yourself into the arena of her conscience. Telling someone that she shouldn't even be a nurse or that she shouldn't be employed in any area where working with blood products might be a possiblity, no matter how remote, seems adversarial and even punitive. "If you want deny the calling of being a nurse, put your strange beliefs above patient care, and impose upon your co-workers to do your duty for you, then you shouldn't even be here," is a disrespectful and ill-informed philosophy that runs counter to core nursing principles.
And it's a major over-reaction.
As I have stated in earlier posts, it would be foolhardy and impractical for a JW nurse to seek employment in a blood bank or a HOT unit where this conflict would likely permeate her entire work life. But thousands of JW nurses go to their jobs every day and almost all of them manage to function perfectly well (in relation to their religious beliefs--can't say they don't have other issues) with a little planning and creativity. This is the norm. And that's the way it should be.
Accommodation--whether for moral convictions, medical conditions, pumping milk, etc.--should be done whenever and wherever possible. Only if there is serious, frequent and on-going difficulty or the assistance needed proves so onerous as to cause significant disruption to the area of employment should discussion be raised about whether matters can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. BTW, to assume that people with religious convictions "have a choice" about what they will or will not do as opposed to those with medical needs who do not have a choice is to minimize their committment and turn their moral imperatives into "suggestions."
Sometime tough choices need to be made and a nurse could conceivably have to decide between keeping her job and following her conscience. But that ought to be a last resort when no other solution can be found.
When I was in Health Law, the only process a nurse can refuse to do is abortion. Other than that, a nurse must provide any nursing procedure. The patient need the transfussion ASAP, therefore if something would had happend that nurse could have being sued....
I find it ethically and morally objectionable to keep 80+ year olds who've coded 5 times today already and suffer from multiple mets alive on a vent with max pressor support. Can I refuse to care for such patients?
A line must be drawn between accommodation and reckless abandon.
You answered your own question. Indeed, you do have a right to ask to be reassigned in your example. HOW you do so is of great importance. Simply walking out in the middle of a code would be a problem. But going to your Charge and saying you really need to switch with someone because you can no longer, in good conscience, treat that patient is a right that you have. And I didn't need the POTUS to tell me that.
Similarly, staff who have important religious or other moral issues that affect their work must bring it up ahead of time. In some cases, of course, they may not have realized in advance what could happen. Nurses, though, are usually educated and experienced well enough to initiate such a discussion early on.
My impression is that if we live in a truly diverse society, we need a lot more awareness and cognitive skills when it comes to moral and religious differences ON BOTH ENDS OF THE STETHOSCOPE. I think few of us have such education or experience, and we are fortunate to have these forums to gain some of that exposure.
We've had a few related threads already, I know. This one stirred the pot, to be sure:
We are our own best support. We can learn from each other, debate the issues here, and clarify our moral positions. I think that, no matter what, we are stuck with the diversity among ourselves that merely reflects the same diversity we see in our patients.
I do agree with the fact we have our morals that bring about diversity. I actually think that is the issue. In other words, this is a matter of conscious I cant say that it is incorrect for you to ask, however, by my standard I can say that if I found something to be morally incorrect I would not ask another to perform it for Me. Why because that is my moral standard just as that is the moral standard of a JW. Now to even the playing field, if that was not my moral standard and I choose to ask someone else to hang the blood for me then I can't cast my opinion upon them if they refuse to do it. Why because I would not do it myself. It may not be there beliefs, so I may feel comfortable in asking them, but once I receive a my response yes or no I must accept that individuals response just as I would expect them to respect my's. So really there is no concrete yes or no response to this question.
Well, in my PACU unit we all work together. I don't know the religious affiliation of everyone but I do know there are Catholics, Protestants, LDS, and at least one Hindu. There could be a JW, I just don't know for sure. If I were hanging blood and an available nurse refused to help I'd just ask another. If that refusal caused any significant delay on infusing the blood I'd just chart it to cover my rear and maybe do an incident report. Then the hospital could work on improving communication if they wanted.
Well, in my PACU unit we all work together. I don't know the religious affiliation of everyone but I do know there are Catholics, Protestants, LDS, and at least one Hindu. There could be a JW, I just don't know for sure. If I were hanging blood and an available nurse refused to help I'd just ask another. If that refusal caused any significant delay on infusing the blood I'd just chart it to cover my rear and maybe do an incident report. Then the hospital could work on improving communication if they wanted.
And yet again that is were good communication comes in. You know if we talked about it and made a plan it wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately the nurse at the beginning waited till the last possible second to make her stand. Under normal circumstances you know who is getting a blood transfusion. You get orders for a blood transfusion, and then there is the time the order goes to go to the lab. In that time lapse there could have been so much done to avoid that situation. I am not saying she is a bad nurse or anything I just think that she should have been more active in her situation. I met JW nurses that feel the same way you do 1stloveistobeanurse and when they see that situation they quickly find ways to switch patients or ways to avoid that situation. Even working in setting where its not going to be an issue ever. Like I said before it doesn't really bother me if some else does it but not everyone feels the same.
I think its also about tolerance and respect, if a nurse had something she felt uncomfortable in doing but I didn't, I would totally do it just because I respect her wishes and I tolerate her beliefs. We are a team and have to look out for each other. Doesn't mean I am going claw her eyes out and demand that she quit working. So you can't do it, you can't do it. Big deal. As long as SOMEONE does it and the patient is safe that is all that matters.
I truely do agree with your stance on this, the one thing that I was driving home, was there was some comments that some JW nurses presented that implied that if another nurse refused to assist in hanging the blood they would not be considered a team player and this to me is not the case. Why because each individual should be responsible for there own morals. I just could not ask someone to do something I was morally against doing myself.
It is not to say it is the other nurses belief, but I just feel like, if it comprised my stance against God then I rather avoid the situation as much as possible, not by avoiding nursing all together but looking at other areas of nursing. This however, is my stance, it may not be others but it is my's and there really isn't a right or wrong to that it is just accepting people as they are - I hope that makes sense.
Also I want to through out something, not all christian's JW are opposed to blood transfusions, many baptist, methodist ect.. are opposed to blood transfusions as well. I say this to say this, religion or ones beliefs in God cannot be viewed as a right or wrong issue. We each are different and God views and accepts each of us as being different. If I was or wasn't a nurse this would have nothing to do with my moral stance on my relationship to God. I just could not ask someone to do something that I could not do myself.
And yet again that is were good communication comes in. You know if we talked about it and made a plan it wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately the nurse at the beginning waited till the last possible second to make her stand. Under normal circumstances you know who is getting a blood transfusion. You get orders for a blood transfusion, and then there is the time the order goes to go to the lab. In that time lapse there could have been so much done to avoid that situation. I am not saying she is a bad nurse or anything I just think that she should have been more active in her situation. I met JW nurses that feel the same way you do 1stloveistobeanurse and when they see that situation they quickly find ways to switch patients or ways to avoid that situation. Even working in setting where its not going to be an issue ever. Like I said before it doesn't really bother me if some else does it but not everyone feels the same.
I think its also about tolerance and respect, if a nurse had something she felt uncomfortable in doing but I didn't, I would totally do it just because I respect her wishes and I tolerate her beliefs. We are a team and have to look out for each other. Doesn't mean I am going claw her eyes out and demand that she quit working. So you can't do it, you can't do it. Big deal. As long as SOMEONE does it and the patient is safe that is all that matters.
I would like to take this opportunity to apologize for my lack of tact in suggesting that you are not a team player a few posts ago. I was getting tired and realized soon afterward, that I needed a break from the online thing. My apology is public because my original posting was public.
It is true that there are many people who are not Jehovah's Witnesses that do not accept blood transfusions, which is why non-blood treatments are offered to anyone who desires them. (A non-Witness acquaintance of mine just inquired of them this morning.)
I am wondering if I am correct in understanding that you would not hang blood for another nurse even though you would transfuse a patient if the patient was assigned to you. Would you rather trade assignments (if given advance notice) in such case, so that you were completely responsible for that patient's care? If my understanding is correct, then I get where you're coming from. (The only thing is sometimes our care has to be a little fragmented due to admissions, breaks and lunches, in which case another nurse needs to step in to provide for another nurses assignment.) I am comfortable in asking someone to do this task for me or else trade assignments, whichever the other nurse is O.K. with. (There is a scripturally based reason for my being O.K. with it if you want to hear it. But another witness may not want to ask anyone else either, for her own reasons.)
Just wanted to add that the details I provided earlier in this thread (granted a little off the subject), was to offer some additional background information into Jehovah's Witnesses on blood, not to compare or put down anyone else's beliefs. Again, I apologize if you got the impression that there was some other reason for elaborating on the beliefs.
O.K. hope we get each other now. And I really do wish you success.
AnnaSL, BSN, RN
71 Posts
The Highlighted part.. TRUE...
I too dont want to force any JW to do what is against their belief.. It's just that for me, becoming a Nurse is a Calling, God has put YOU where you are for a reason and given you the abilities needed to make a difference. And as a Nurse, we should do our best and leave a trail that others can follow.. I too, am a CHRISTIAN.. and a belief that In everything we do, we should always put our heart and soul in everything we do.. Let God dictates unto our emotion what we, as a nurse with an obligation, do. I believe that, each and everyone of us has to give importance to Life. It is a God given gift. And as an Advocate of Life longevity, I will do my duty to preserve life.
I believe that "The worst REGRET we can have in life is not the WRONG things we did, But the RIGHT things we could have done but never did..":redbeathe