Is it time to get rid of 12 hour shifts?

[country mom]

I'm interested in a discussion on the topic of 12 hour shifts, and I surmise there will be some strong feelings both for and against. I love a good debate. Do you think it would be better to get rid of the 12 hour shifts that have become quite standard on many nursing units?

The pro's: - some nurses like compressed work weeks in regards to child care, "having a life", etc.,

- less commute time

- more days open to moonlight somewhere else

- more days away from the workplace

The con's: - some studies show an association with increased errors on shifts longer than 8 hours.

- going 12 hours without eating/bathroom break is harder than going 8 hours without eating/bathroom break

- greater physical exhaustion after 12 hours, my legs don't hold up as well now as they did when I was a newbie in my 20's.

Just wondering what others thought.:typing

[FireStarterRN, BSN, RN]

I doubt if European hospitals allow their nurses a 2 hour break in the middle of the day. That was a custom from Mediterranean countries from agrarian times and is hardly practical for a modern health care setting.

One favorable European custom, though, is the generous vacation time your average worker is alloted. That is something that Americans should imitate!

[woknblues]

i doubt if european hospitals allow their nurses a 2 hour break in the middle of the day. that was a custom from mediterranean countries from agrarian times and is hardly practical for a modern health care setting.

one favorable european custom, though, is the generous vacation time your average worker is alloted. that is something that americans should imitate!

sorry if i made it seem like european hospitals are doing this. i had no intention of implying this.

is this why everyone can't tolerate the idea? or is it just that we are used to the 12 hour grind? the "gettin' it over with" mentality?

i want to work in a job i love to go to. that i don't mind leaving my family and friends to enjoy (that is what we do right. trade labor for money?). i have never had that in my 20 years of work life. for me, this means looking forward to my work day, knowing that i am refreshed, interested to be there, helpful to my patients and coworkers. innovative, even.

i used to work 16s back to back to back to back (x6). i held the record for hours worked inside a boiler (a powerplant) during a shutdown/tunaround season at my work. i worked nearly 100 hours a week for several weeks at a time. i made $1000 a day. i regret every second of it now.

until we stop thinking and using ourselves as robots, we will be them. this is just my opinion. it goes beyond "hospitals", beyond "nursing", etc. i don't want to go back to "get the shift done, make lots of money, have fun on weekends" mantra i have been smothering myself with for 20 years. this is my experience, and i am up for a change.

i wonder what the perpetual high stress 12 hour shift does to a person, long term. i wonder what it has done to america? we are putting the bonds on ourselves, i say. yeah, i guess am being "controversial" here. is that still allowed?

[futrarmyCRNA]

I find this VERY surprising. Every facility I know of has both 8 and 12 hour shifts. Every one. And the problem with staffing is the same no matter WHAT the shift: day people cry they don't have enough staff. Evening people do the same. As does nights. Doesn't matter what LENGTH shift you have, just how many people you have at any given point, and how much staffing is willing to accomodate personal schedules and the needs of the unit.

At this point in time, I think every shift is down a nurse or two at ANY given time.

I'm thinking of going per diem just to avoid the scheduling drama!

Maybe my perspective comes from working critical care for the last 4 years. Leaving the unit short for 4 hours because of an 8 hour shift puts us in a huge bind. Picking up an extra patient in ICU is much different than picking one up on the floor. We only let nurses picking up extra shifts work 8 hours to help cover when we are already short. This is an overtime shift and not scheduled to meet choice of nurse regular shift. 8 hour shifts do not work anywhere in our hospital (except in rehab) other than how presented here. We have mostly new younger nurses who DO NOT want to work 5 days a week, especially 3-11 shift. I came out of school and worked five 8's, then two 8's and two 12's, I would rather work the 4 day schedule if 8's are going to be mandatory. Working every other weekend while doing 8 hour shifts suck and you only have one day off at a time. No one I have ever met likes that.

Like all the area hospitals where I live, we do not have tons of nurses to work both 8's and 12's and fill in all slots. Simple math tells you you need either 3 RN working 8's or 2 working 12 for each slot. And on any given one day, we will probably have the 2 RN's and not the 3. More power to a place that has the number of nurses to be flexible to work whatever shift they want. But I'd be willing to bet that the number of nurses out there working full-time who want to work 12's outnumber those who want to work five 8's each week by at least 2 to 1.

[NeoNurseTX, RN]

I live about 2 miles from my hospital and still love 12s. I wouldn't want to be there 5 days a week!

[tntrn, ASN, RN]

Find a place that still works 8's but most cannot do both. You obviously have never been a manager or have had to do staffing. Mixing up the shifts like this would never work on most hospital floor or units where I live. First of all no one I know wants to work 3-11, especially 5 days a week. Where I work, it seems only the older or part-time nurses want 8 hour shifts due to the fact they don't have to put in 5 days a week. The full-time staff has by and large, all over, wanted 12's due to getting FT hours and 2 more days off a week. Trying to staff with a mix of 8's and 12's leaves someone working a 4 hr shift or someone having to pull a 16, or just leaving the unit short. 8's will never make their way back as the prime staffing shift. 12's are here to stay.

We have both 8's and 12's on our unit. Thankfully, our union contract considers the 8's the norm, and 12's as "innovative", so they can't take away 8's from those of us who have been there forever. I'd march in a minute if that happened.

Also, except for the new nurses who are there on 2 year contracts fresh out of school, few of our nurses work fulltime, so going 5 days a week doesn't factor in.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

if you are allowing someone to force you to go 8 to 12 hours without a bathroom break, you have no one to blame but yourself. i'm always amazed at what some people will put up with.

there isn't much that can't wait while you take a break or even have lunch. i probably wouldn't interrupt cpr for a break -- but most else can wait. there's a reason why they tell you on airplanes that "if the oxygen masks descend, place your own mask over your nose and mouth and then help others." take care of yourself first, or you won't be able to take care of anyone else!

that said, i love my 12 hour shifts, even at my age!

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

yes, yes, yes it is time to get rid of the 12 hour shifts! i think that i've written about my opinions about this before, so i'll be brief here. nurse burnout is high with 12 hour shifts, as well as call-ins for being sick. (you might be able to work for 8 hours with the sniffles, but many opt not to work for 12 hours with sniffles.) also, solves the issue of getting people to staff meetings and inservices without blowing your off day, as it could be either before or after an 8 hour shift. another plus is that people would be more apt to stay over to help the next shift if it extended an 8 hour shift versus a 12 hour shift.

a solution to getting people to work 3-11 is to bring back "7 on-7 off" shifts, where you work 7 days straight then off for 7. nothing like a week's break to rejuvenate!:twocents:

if you don't want to do 12s, please find a job where you don't have to. but don't get rid of the 12 hour shifts, as there are plenty of us that love them!

[rn-n- 2005]

After getting used to the 12 hour shifts I would be hard pressed to work 8's. I work 7p-7a and if we went back to 8 hour shifts I wouldn't work 5 8 hour nights (11p-7a) or evenings (3p-11p).

I work in the ED and most of us work 12's but some do work 8 hours so there is some flexibilty with hours. We also have the odd shift times of 11a-11p, 3p-3a and some work 5p-5a.

Just my two:twocents:.

Ann

[country mom]

I doubt if European hospitals allow their nurses a 2 hour break in the middle of the day. That was a custom from Mediterranean countries from agrarian times and is hardly practical for a modern health care setting.

One favorable European custom, though, is the generous vacation time your average worker is alloted. That is something that Americans should imitate!

I read once about European maternity leave- like, 6 months of paid leave. Yeah, that! That would be another interesting thread.

[FireStarterRN, BSN, RN]

Sorry if I made it seem like European hospitals are doing this. I had no intention of implying this.

Is this why everyone can't tolerate the idea? Or is it just that we are used to the 12 hour grind? The "gettin' it over with" mentality?

I want to work in a job I love to go to. That I don't mind leaving my family and friends to enjoy (that is what we do right. trade labor for money?). I have never had that in my 20 years of work life. For me, this means looking forward to my work day, knowing that I am refreshed, interested to be there, helpful to my patients and coworkers. Innovative, even.

I used to work 16s back to back to back to back (X6). I held the record for hours worked inside a boiler (a powerplant) during a shutdown/tunaround season at my work. I worked nearly 100 hours a week for several weeks at a time. I made $1000 a day. I regret every second of it now.

Until we stop thinking and using ourselves as robots, we will be them. This is just my opinion. It goes beyond "hospitals", beyond "nursing", etc. I don't want to go back to "get the shift done, make lots of money, have fun on weekends" mantra I have been smothering MYSELF with for 20 years. This is my experience, and I am up for a change.

I wonder what the perpetual high stress 12 hour shift does to a person, long term. I wonder what it has done to America? We are putting the bonds on ourselves, I say. Yeah, I guess am being "controversial" here. Is that still allowed?

For me, I like having a lot of free days to pursue my extra-curricular hobbies. I work to live, not live to work. My hobbies (other than frittering time away here at allnurses) are all day affairs, like hitting the slopes or taking out the boat. I also get involved in projects around the house that get me dirty. Then, I have a nice soak and can throw myself into work for 12+ hours, and immerse myself in the patients, and in my workplace.

I'm a high energy person, and when I do something I go for it. I'm in great physical shape. Yet I also need uninterupted down time to recoup from stimulating environments such as nursing. I need a lot of time alone. So, for me 12 hour shifts are ideal.

The point being, there's no right or wrong way here.

[wooh, BSN, RN]

Sorry if I made it seem like European hospitals are doing this. I had no intention of implying this.

Is this why everyone can't tolerate the idea? Or is it just that we are used to the 12 hour grind? The "gettin' it over with" mentality?

I want to work in a job I love to go to.

I love my job, but I'm definitely a "work to live" rather than a "live to work" person. If I had to work an extra day though, especially with a big break in the middle, I wouldn't love my job. Because I can't do the commute another day each week. And I'm another one that would have nowhere to spend the break other than at work, and if I'm at work, what's the point. So that's why I oppose the idea. I drive an hour each way to go to a job that I can love. (Passing a few other hospitals on the way, because it's worth it.) But if I had to make the drive another day each week, and be away from home another 14 hours each week (10 hours, 2 hour break, 2 hours driving), that certainly wouldn't help me enjoy my life more.

[RNsRWe, ASN, RN]

Whenever I hear the term "the current standard", it just makes me think up better ideas.

I hope I didn't offend you with all that ridiculous imagining, but just because management does not do this in your facility, does not make it impossible. Staggering shifts happen in other countries/industries. It happens so that people don't just "get their shift over with", to actually a) enjoy what they do, b)perform optimally within a certain number of hours, and c) live life every day, instead of going 12 hour robot, 12 hour sleep for 3 days, then taking a day to recover/laundry, then wondering what happened the last 4 days. Offer 8s offer 10s offer 12s. Why the heck not? Because it is easier is not really acceptable, is it? Or is it?!

I am no stranger to long shifts myself, for the record.

Some live to work, others work to live. a 4 day work week isn't exactly "stretching it out" is it? Anywho......

I was about to type out my thoughts as they came to me, then I read through the rest of the thread and Wooh's post pretty much summed it up for me.

I don't take offense, of course not! I just don't find the proposal you've laid out as acceptable, that's all. I don't want to 'spin my wheels' for an extra 2.5 hours each day (in your scenario, there's another half hour added onto each shift, making it a 12.5 hour time span). If I'm getting paid for only 10 hours out of each 12.5 hour committment, it IS a waste of my time: I'm the type who doesn't want the majority of my free time relegated to 2-hour blocks. I'd MUCH rather work my 11.5 hours out of an assigned 12, then LEAVE TOTALLY and enjoy my time off how I see fit. Without having to fit my life into my workday as you've described.

Perhaps someone with less outside committments would enjoy your scenario. But in my world, having to do the same amount of work hours and get the same amount of pay but it taking a full 24 hours extra out of my life just isn't worth it.

I'll work 3 days for 36 hours minus .5 for lunch each day. That's it!