Is there really no way to refuse a mandatory flu shot?

elkpark · Feb 6, 2014

Isn't there some kind of rule about invoking Nazis automatically means you lose?

Godwin's Law states that the longer an on-line discussion goes on, the greater the likelihood that someone will invoke the Nazis. You are thinking of one of the corollaries:

"There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)^[3] than others.^[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress."

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

:)

ixchel · Feb 6, 2014

Jordan1230, when I was a prenursing student, I felt very similarly to you. Micro and a&p 2 made me feel even stronger about it. I graduate in 3 months and feel quite differently now. All it took was my first semester of med/surg to make me realize just how many people I could protect just by reducing my own risks for contracting those 3-4 strains. Additionally, if you do read the fine print, because flu strains tend to be similar, they pick the most likely to circulate, but those also help build defenses against the rest. Is it perfect? Of course not. Nothing is. We wouldn't have this conversation nearly as often if it had the efficacy rate of birth control with no side effects. But any increase in odds benefits the population at large, even if only in the 60s (which is huge, if you ask me). If your nursing program does a good job, you will see just how important it is for you to pay attention to that benefit for the rest of the population.

allnurses Guide · Feb 6, 2014

Wish I could give you a standing ovation. You consistently dismantle these bizarre arguments with such aplomb. I would end up giving myself hypertension if I tried to keep discussing this issue for long.
wtbcrna =

I would think even my family and coworkers would actually say wtbcrna=PITHA.

The biggest reason I keep up with these debates is that I think the anti-vaccine movement has given too much leeway and pro-vaccine people have been quiet for too long. Pro-vaccinators need to be just as adamant about their convictions to vaccinate as the anti-vaccine people in order to ensure our own family's health and our patients.

psu_213, BSN, RN · Feb 6, 2014

Godwin's Law states that the longer an on-line discussion goes on, the greater the likelihood that someone will invoke the Nazis.

The "funny" thing is that the person brought up the Gestapo in the very first post in this thread.

ceccia · Apr 7, 2014

Of course...people that jump on propaganda bandwagons rarely, if ever actually think for themselves...what else would you expect?

what other reasons/circumstances can you think of that would cause someone to have gotten MMR or other vaccines but not a flu shot?

if 'propaganda-wagon idiot with no ability to think for themselves' is the only possible answer you have, then you're either an extremely lazy thinker, or closed-minded and unwiling to consider someone else's point of view.

I don't know where you live, but here MMR and most other common vaccines are almost always given in childhood. That is one explanation for why an individual might have received certain vaccines and as an adult does not consent to others.

Another possibility is that an individual thinks for him/herself and weighs the potential consequences of the vaccine against the potential consequences of catching whatever the vaccine is supposed to protect against, and also weighs the effectiveness of said vaccine into his/her decision. Therefore someone may decide that a vaccine to prevent hepatitis B is worth it, and a seasonal flu shot isn't.

allnurses Guide · Apr 7, 2014

Let's see pneumonia, influenza, and/or death versus probably at the worst mild discomfort from getting the flu vaccine. CDC - Key Facts About Seasonal Flu Vaccine | Seasonal Influenza (Flu)

It seems the people that think the most critically choose to be fully vaccinated and the people that choose to disbelieve peer-reviewed scientific evidence while choosing to believe in conspiracy theories opt not to be vaccinated.

AmyRN303, BSN, RN · Apr 7, 2014

If one is presented with hard scientific data regarding the flu shot, one would be have to be a hardcore conspiracy theorist to refuse it. There are many, many complications of the flu itself, which other posters have covered, as well as the danger of transmitting the virus to the unvaccinated. And for those who believe they are "healthy" and not at risk for flu complications, do yourself a favor and research cytokine storm. I'll take a little discomfort at the vaccination site any day, thank you.

ceccia · Apr 7, 2014

Let's see pneumonia, influenza, and/or death versus probably at the worst mild discomfort from getting the flu vaccine. CDC - Key Facts About Seasonal Flu Vaccine | Seasonal Influenza (Flu)
It seems the people that think the most critically choose to be fully vaccinated and the people that choose to disbelieve peer-reviewed scientific evidence while choosing to believe in conspiracy theories opt not to be vaccinated.

can you show me any credible, comprehensive, long term (30+ years) research definitively proving NO link between the flu vaccine and negative side effects (specifically including increased alzheimers risk)?

I'm not being argumentative; concerns have been raised about that possibility and thus far I haven't found enough to reassure me that we know exactly what the long-term effects are of getting these shots annually for 20, 30, 40 years. if you have information that proves otherwise (i.e. a substantial number of credible long-term studies, not sponsored by organizations likely to be biased toward a particular result) i am absolutely open to reading and changing my opinion.

your attempt to discredit objectors by deriding them gor whining about 'just aa little discomfort at the injection site' shows that you don't understand ( or don't want to acknowledge) that not everyone objecting to these shots is a raving lunatic that fits into your comfortable stereotype, but that reasonable people are raising legitimate concerns over possible long-term negative effects. And at this point, no one knows enough to properly answer those concerns.

for me personally that is one of the main differences between the flu shot and every other vaccine - frequency. ONE course of MMR shots and most people are immune for life. same with hepB, etc.

i have never said anything about a conspiracy; it would be lazy to generalize and associate everyone who raises any concerns whatsoever about the long-term safety and possible side effects into the same category. My concern is that we do not know for sure that there won't be negative health effects long-term and for that reason i won't take a chance.

allnurses Guide · Apr 8, 2014

can you show me any credible, comprehensive, long term (30+ years) research definitively proving NO link between the flu vaccine and negative side effects (specifically including increased alzheimers risk)?
I'm not being argumentative; concerns have been raised about that possibility and thus far I haven't found enough to reassure me that we know exactly what the long-term effects are of getting these shots annually for 20, 30, 40 years. if you have information that proves otherwise (i.e. a substantial number of credible long-term studies, not sponsored by organizations likely to be biased toward a particular result) i am absolutely open to reading and changing my opinion.
your attempt to discredit objectors by deriding them gor whining about 'just aa little discomfort at the injection site' shows that you don't understand ( or don't want to acknowledge) that not everyone objecting to these shots is a raving lunatic that fits into your comfortable stereotype, but that reasonable people are raising legitimate concerns over possible long-term negative effects. And at this point, no one knows enough to properly answer those concerns.
for me personally that is one of the main differences between the flu shot and every other vaccine - frequency. ONE course of MMR shots and most people are immune for life. same with hepB, etc.
i have never said anything about a conspiracy; it would be lazy to generalize and associate everyone who raises any concerns whatsoever about the long-term safety and possible side effects into the same category. My concern is that we do not know for sure that there won't be negative health effects long-term and for that reason i won't take a chance.

Actually, I am getting tired of disproving people that refuse to provide any scientific evidence to support their objections to the flu vaccines. So, why don't we start with you providing some peer-reviewed scientific evidence to support your conclusions and I will in turn then provide some peer-reviewed scientific evidence.

ceccia · Apr 8, 2014

Actually, I am getting tired of disproving people that refuse to provide any scientific evidence to support their objections to the flu vaccines. So, why don't we start with you providing some peer-reviewed scientific evidence to support your conclusions and I will in turn then provide some peer-reviewed scientific evidence.

at this point i honestly don't know whether you're deliberately avoiding acknowledging what I am actually saying, or if you really don't understand what i'm saying. So let me break it down in a few simple sentences, after which point I'm done with this topic.

-I clearly state several times that my objection/concern is the lack of credible long-term research proving the safety of the flu vaccine.

-You then ask me for evidence/ research.

Explain how that makes sense to you. Since my concern is that currently THERE ISN'T ANY comprehensive long term research.

allnurses Guide · Apr 8, 2014

at this point i honestly don't know whether you're deliberately avoiding acknowledging what I am actually saying, or if you really don't understand what i'm saying. So let me break it down in a few simple sentences, after which point I'm done with this topic.
-I clearly state several times that my objection/concern is the lack of credible long-term research proving the safety of the flu vaccine.
-You then ask me for evidence/ research.
Explain how that makes sense to you. Since my concern is that currently THERE ISN'T ANY comprehensive long term research.

Because I already know you haven't looked at the research d/t there being decades old studies/retrospective studies that are out there. You obviously haven't looked at the research or you just do not know how to look for peer-reviewed scientific research.

In other words in a plain simple sentence: Yes, it makes perfect sense what I posted.

allnurses Guide · Apr 8, 2014

We have been studying the flu vaccines since at least the 1940s. There are annual reviews of influenza vaccines efficacy and safety along with continual surveillance for adverse reactions. In that same time period from the advent of influenza vaccines there has been a dramatic decrease in deaths and illnesses related to influenza while life expectancy has continually gone up in the same amount of time. There has been no study showing that people are at increased risk from annual influenza vaccines or even repeated vaccines. Every U.S. military person is living proof of this.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/812621_3

Variable efficacy of repeated annual influenza vaccination

Guillain-Barré syndrome after influen... [J Clin Neuromuscul Dis. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

Does antigenic overload exist?... [immunol Allergy Clin North Am. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.alz.org/alzheimers_disease_myths_about_alzheimers.asp

Establishing the safety of influenza vaccine in ... [Pediatr Ann. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI

Populations at risk for severe or complicated influenza illness: systematic review and meta-analysis