Interview etiquette for finding out the pay!!!

carolinapooh, BSN, RN · Mar 17, 2009

Say you have 20 candidates for the same new grad RN position (which is probably the case in a lot of places, unfortunately).
Would you be interested in hiring the one that asked about pay and benefits? Seriously?
I found a part time job (nocs) as a graduate nurse, and I start next month.
At this point, I'm thanking my lucky stars even for a part-time job.
And heavens no, I NEVER asked about pay/benefits. They let me know how much the position paid when they OFFERED me the job.
I was once a recruiter in my 'former life.' If someone asked me about salary in their first interview, that was usually the last interview that they would have. A total turn off for me.

Interesting - because I would never, ever take a job without asking about benefits and pay. Every interview I've ever had - I've asked. Why would I not want to know about benefits? What if the benefits suck - why would I keep considering the position?

I wouldn't.

In fact, nine times out of ten - they bring that stuff to the interview! Pay and bennies are how the company sells itself to you - which is part of their job in the interview. ESPECIALLY during a nursing shortage. I walked out of every hospital with a little sheet ENUMERATING their benefits in black and white!

And if my asking put off the recruiter - then, sorry, but unfortunately I take that as unprofessionalism on the part of the recruiter, and I wouldn't want to work for the hospital as a result.

I've never not gotten a job I've applied for - and I've asked about benefits every time. And in school - we were told to ask. The person applying has a right to know. An interview is a two-way street - especially with a nursing shortage - and the person applying has every right to ask the professional equivalent of "what's in it for me if I work for you"? If I was told in an interview that the company doesn't discuss that until they make an offer - what kind of company are they, and what are they hiding? Fat copays with their health insurance? A thousand dollar dental deductible? Crappy retirement options? Nuts.

I got four job offers from the four hospitals that I applied to in October/November 2007 - just before I graduated and before I took the NCLEX - and every one of the recruiters got asked about starting hourly salary and benefits.

Recruiter: "Do you have any questions for us?" - this is usually at the close of the interview.

Me: "Could you tell me about your benefits packages?"

And then me again: "Could you possibly tell me your starting salary for new grads? What is the current clinical ladder/career progression program?"

(and the other question: "What type of support/program do you offer for new grads in their first year?")

You can bet the place that quoted me three bucks an hour less than Duke's per hour didn't get a followup call from me - because they couldn't follow it up with sexy health insurance or any type of loan payback assistance. Had they 'fessed up something awesome, my commute might be a bit longer than what it is. :) Sometimes compromises are appropriate.

You don't know what they have if you don't ask. What if you don't ask, and part of the bennies are a six grand bonus after one year for your loans? And you didn't know that because you didn't ask, and the recruiter wasn't with it enough to tell you, or you were his/her tenth interview that day, and they could have cared less? It happens, folks. (Uncle Sam will take his cut, yes - but money's money.)

I asked every hospital - and the recruiters nearly killed themselves to sell their stuff to me. I was pretty sure of where I was going to work anyway - because of what I knew Duke had on the table for me as a Duke grad - but I didn't put my eggs in one basket. If the benefits here had stunk (and while they're not the gold standard I certainly can't complain), I would have probably not worked for DUMC - because benefits are a big deal for me - as they are for most people.

Actually, now that I think about it, all the hospitals at our job fair when I was in school TOLD us what they were paying.

How can a person - especially an RN in the middle of places CLAMORING for bodies - be expected to make an informed decision when the likelihood of multiple job offers is high? Why would you keep waiting for a phone call from someplace with nasty benefits? No thanks.

You have an RN license. These places want you. Let them sell themselves to you as hard as you're working to sell yourself to them. I have never, ever been told asking about starting salary for new grads was unprofessional - if it's done correctly. Preposterous. And trust me when I say I want to know what their retirement benefits are (and most of the time, these places are sticking this stuff on their websites anyway - about benefits, I mean) and what kinds of health insurance they have.

Mind you, that starting salary is definitely non-negotiable - but what if one place is paying five bucks an hour more than the other (unlikely, I know, but it could happen), or one hospital has crappy health insurance coverage? Even three bucks (which is the case in our area) is a big difference - and then shift diffs also vary across the board. You have a right to know all this up front.

If you were experienced, I would say that the pay potentially becomes a touchier issue, but I swear to you I'd still ask.

On hospital websites, I've seen approximate starting pays right by the position description. So what's the big secret?

I don't know how you can make informed decisions without this information ahead of time - and keep in mind, I'm not twenty-one, I'm a couple of months shy of 36, and have worked more than one place in my life.

Do it professionally, by all means - but I see no reason why this is such a taboo question, and neither does anyone else I've polled on this topic either.

Sorry - for some reason this has put me right on my soapbox.

carolinapooh, BSN, RN · Mar 17, 2009

By the time the interview is reaching the end (and maybe the job is being offered to you), if the pay has not been discussed, I ask at the end. I have found that pay and benefits usually are discussed at the end, whether or not I am the one who brings up the subject. I have also cold called an employer and asked outright in a polite way. When I do this, I don't identify myself because I don't want to commit to an interview appointment when all I'm doing is finding out info.

Exactly. Completely professional and highly appropriate.

We're not kids, folks - we're adults, adults who have worked their butts off and have a credential that, in most places and in most cases, is in high demand. We are in a very enviable position, one that a huge chunk of the country is not in right now. And HOSPITALS ARE, in many (and I'd daresay MOST) cases, DESPERATE to fill slots - even with the rest of the economy going to Hades in a handbasket, people are still getting sick - and we're in the throes of a national nursing shortage.

You have something they want. We have one of the most level playing fields (again, in most/many places - I've heard RNs are actually being laid off in New York) around right now.

Make them sell themselves to you. It's the professional equivalent of "what's in it for me?". Because if there's nothing in it for you, you're wasting your time. And trust me, they will kill themselves to tell you how great they are - and if they don't, then that probably tells you something about the company culture that's worth some careful consideration.

carolinapooh, BSN, RN · Mar 17, 2009

Say you have 20 candidates for the same new grad RN position (which is probably the case in a lot of places, unfortunately).
Would you be interested in hiring the one that asked about pay and benefits? Seriously?
I found a part time job (nocs) as a graduate nurse, and I start next month.
At this point, I'm thanking my lucky stars even for a part-time job.
And heavens no, I NEVER asked about pay/benefits. They let me know how much the position paid when they OFFERED me the job.
I was once a recruiter in my 'former life.' If someone asked me about salary in their first interview, that was usually the last interview that they would have. A total turn off for me.

Uh, I would - because it would tell me two things:

(1) if they want to know what I have to offer, they're probably already considering working here.

(2) they're interested enough in my company to ask.

Straydandelion · Mar 17, 2009

General salary can be determined without needing to ask the prospective employer while promoting the benefits of hiring you. As far as husband and wife, I would think it wouldn't matter much to the employer, yet they would want to interview you separately and not as a "team". Good luck with your search! http://www.google.com/search?q=salary+comparison+of+nurses&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

jpeters84 · Mar 17, 2009

I understand etiquette and that asking about pay during the first interview can be a turn off but on the other side of things this is in fact a job that we are making a living from. Why do we have to play games? Why aren't nursing positions up front right away about pay? I think it put's nurses in a difficult position when it doesn't have to be that way. Most other professional careers the pay is listed right up front so no one has to ask akward questions, no one has to go through the whole interview process not really knowing if the pay is going to work for them. This tradition of not finding out about the pay until the position is offered to me sounds like an old tradition that was used by nursing administration to keep the upperhand in the hiring process.

Nurses have come so far to gain autonomy and respect in the workplace. Why can't we ask for a more professional hiring process as well where pay and benefits are listed upfront and we can decide before we even start the process whether or not the pay and benefits is going to work for us? It's not greedy, or does not make a nurse any less caring or in it for the wrong reasons, it's looking out for ourselves and then in turn make us in a good place to look out for our patients. Just my thoughts.

Atheos · Mar 17, 2009

Interesting - because I would never, ever take a job without asking about benefits and pay. Every interview I've ever had - I've asked. Why would I not want to know about benefits? What if the benefits suck - why would I keep considering the position?

No one said TAKE the job.

We said wait for the job offer and THEN negotiate.

It's a game. I realize no one wants to play games but the employer is investing in you and the least you could do is play the game.

Nurses have come so far to gain autonomy and respect in the workplace. Why can't we ask for a more professional hiring process as well where pay and benefits are listed upfront and we can decide before we even start the process whether or not the pay and benefits is going to work for us? It's not greedy, or does not make a nurse any less caring or in it for the wrong reasons, it's looking out for ourselves and then in turn make us in a good place to look out for our patients. Just my thoughts.

Have you ever had a 'professional' interview? Talking money first is the kiss of death.

If nurses want to be seen as professionals they have to act like them.

Lawyers, doctors, engineers, gov't employees... They all interview FIRST.

AOx1 · Mar 18, 2009

A few pointers- most "types" of facilities do salary surveys at least once per year of similar local facilities. This means, for example, that most acute care hospitals will be fairly close in pay, most nursing homes, etc. It may vary, but not enough to make a large difference in most cases. The most key thing is what the hospital does to RETAIN nurses. Just to give some perspective, is it worth working at a hospital you don't love for a small amount? Let's say hospital x is paying 25 cents more per hour than hospital y. In a 12 hour shift, you will make $3 more at hospital x, not even enough to pay for lunch. If a hospital is having to pay a huge sign-on or disproportionately higher wages to attract staff, you should definitely wonder why.

I do think you may politely ask about salary and benefits, but it shouldn't be your ONLY question, otherwise it looks like the only thing you care about is the money. I usually would close with this question, and ask it as "I've heard you have competitive wages and benefits, what can you tell me about compensation?"- if the recruiter doesn't offer the information.

As for other questions, there are so many!

What I would ask is this (and you can ask both the nurse manager and current staff members you may know):

What does your hospital do to ensure new grad and current staff retention? You should expect continuing education, a long orientation with preceptor support, and assurance that you will not be shoved onto the floor early if you don't feel ready just so they can meet staffing needs.

Ask about staffing ratios. This DOES vary a lot by hospitals. We have some local med-surg units that have a 1:5 ratio, and one that allows 1:8-10. This is not a good plan. Ask about the roles of the nurse. Will you be expected to draw all your labs, act as a transporter, etc? Some hospitals have cut corners and cut staff and what remains falls to the nurse to accomplish.

Also, ask if it would be possible to speak to an very new nurse and also an experienced one on the unit, and ask their perception of the job.

Look at the facility website- many list benefits online, so do your research if possible.

missjennmb · Mar 18, 2009

Here's the thing... you should NEVER take a job without discussing the pay. Never. However, you want them to want you, before you ask them what they are going to pay you. WHY? Because, say that you talk to the nurse recruiter and she rattles off what they pay new grads. She's not committed to giving you anything more. Say you get through the first interview with the recruiter and go talk to the person you will actually be working for. In that interview, you WOW her. She is not thinking about if she can afford you or whatnot (because you did not bring it up before she made her impression of you - you dont want her to think that you are "in it for the money"). Make sure she knows that you want to do all the things that you believe make a good nurse (attention to detail, care about patients, timeliness, yadda yadda). Work on making a GREAT impression. At this point you still dont discuss money unless they do. You go away and they interview someone else. She thinks on it over the weekend and the longer she thinks, the more she becomes convinced you are the right one for the job. By the end of the weekend she has decided that she NEEDS to add you to her team because she has already thought through exactly HOW she will do it, how you will mesh with this person or that, how she will work your hours around getting you trained, ect ect. She has her heart set on you. At this point she calls the nurse recruiter and says "I need you to hire this person". THEN you negotiate a pay rate. The hospitals want you to think that you have no flexibility and everyone gets the same pay, and its simply not true. I dealt with employee files at my last job (in a hospital) and I was AMAZED at the variance in starting pays even for people who came out of the SAME educational program, had exactly the same experience, and the same lack of background to enhance their resume. But one was really able to negotiate and the other took what they got.

Sure, you can discuss pay before you get the job. You may even still get the job. But you won't get the most money you could possibly get from the job, and if its on the fence between you and someone else, you dont want this to be the item that makes them decide to lean the other way.

Benefit packages though, I would not think twice about discussing, because generally speaking, those are the same for everyone.

jpeters84 · Mar 18, 2009

Stanley-RN2B,

I was a professional for many years before I went back to school to be a nurse. I worked as a legislative aide for a Senator in Washington, I was a campaign consultant and PAC fundraiser for Members of Congress for many years and never did I ever interview for a job without knowing what the pay was that they were offering as a baseline before I went in to interview for the position. While it's true you do not bring up pay until the end of the interview, but as a professional you knew what they were at least willing to pay as a bare minimum prior to the interview and then at the end of the interview you either talked pay or as the position was offered to you, you negotiated. But I have never applied for a job thinking well I have no idea, hopefully somewhere in the $30-50/hr range, I'll find out...

I never said talk money first. I think pay rates and benefits should be posted with the job description. When a hospital posts a job, or recruits for a job, the pay and benefits should be posted as well, that way there's no confusion, no games. If you look at most of the research hospitals in the country they do just that. It's really the more ethical, professional, and proficient way of hiring. But thanks for questioning whether I've ever had a 'professional' interview. That was cute.

jla623 · Mar 18, 2009

Never talk money or benefits in an interview. Refer those questions to HR.

Atheos · Mar 18, 2009

Stanley-RN2B,
I was a professional for many years before I went back to school to be a nurse. I worked as a legislative aide for a Senator in Washington, I was a campaign consultant and PAC fundraiser for Members of Congress for many years and never did I ever interview for a job without knowing what the pay was that they were offering as a baseline before I went in to interview for the position. While it's true you do not bring up pay until the end of the interview, but as a professional you knew what they were at least willing to pay as a bare minimum prior to the interview and then at the end of the interview you either talked pay or as the position was offered to you, you negotiated. But I have never applied for a job thinking well I have no idea, hopefully somewhere in the $30-50/hr range, I'll find out...
I never said talk money first. I think pay rates and benefits should be posted with the job description. When a hospital posts a job, or recruits for a job, the pay and benefits should be posted as well, that way there's no confusion, no games. If you look at most of the research hospitals in the country they do just that. It's really the more ethical, professional, and proficient way of hiring. But thanks for questioning whether I've ever had a 'professional' interview. That was cute.

Then you know that unless someone REALLY wants you they'll rarely post or tell you the rates. Sure some do but many don't. Most say pay commensurate with experience.

Just look online at most professional job boards. They either say nothing or have a ridiculous range not in line with the job.

No one ever calls me cute.

Also, you shouldn't bring up pay after the interview. You bring it up at the job offer. Which is when businesses expect you to negotiate.

jpeters84 · Mar 18, 2009

Stanley-RN2B,

I don't know about getting hired as a nurse, I'm still just a student, so within nursing you are probably right. I'm just saying why does it have to be this way because it doesn't make sense to me and seems to put the nurse looking to be hired at a disadvantage. So while you're saying don't bring up pay until the job offer, I'm saying why not change the current system? Are nurses really expected to go through an entire hiring process without any mention of pay?What a waste of time for all involved. What if the pay isn't right for the hiree and both parties spent all this time interviewing when it could have just been put up front to begin with with the job posting? And if the pay turns out to be too low for someone, now you're suppose to turn down a job offer, how embaressing for the potential employee and I'm sure frustrating for the hiring party. So I understand and appreciate that you are telling me what is best for me to get hired now, what I should do, what the current etiquette is; I'm simply critiquing the current system and saying I think we should change things because it seems like there is a better way of doing them...