Has anyone on here had any experience with the Indiana State University, LPN to BSN program that Brian is talking about?
I have been told that in order for me to keep my current position I have to get my RN.
I'm just looking at different options right now. There is a community college in my area that does the LPN/RN fast track program, but there is a waiting list and no guarantee that I would get in.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Hi,
I am no stranger to distance education - having CLEP'd out or used DSST's in the military. I am also coming to this with a BA and MBA - I am actually pretty stoked at the opportunity to go back to school. I have been an LPN for six years (just got out of the Army) and it's time to
*** I wanted to thank you for your service. I too am a former army LPN. I don't know how flexable you are on location but here in Wisconsin you could get your ADN RN in 9 months with no waiting list. I did. The school I went to is here: Southwest Wisconsin Technical College. As a Wi resident I paid about $3200 including books, tution, fees ect to get my RN. I had to take microbiology and a few gen eds. No A&P required for army trained LPNs.
*** I wanted to thank you for your service. I too am a former army LPN. I don't know how flexable you are on location but here in Wisconsin you could get your ADN RN in 9 months with no waiting list. I did. The school I went to is here: Southwest Wisconsin Technical College. As a Wi resident I paid about $3200 including books, tution, fees ect to get my RN. I had to take microbiology and a few gen eds. No A&P required for army trained LPNs.
Wow, in Florida or Penna this would never fly, NO A&P Courses. More specifically, no CLEP Challenge Exams for College level A&P coursework. I went to LPN School in NC and we where awarded 8 credits(equivlency of) for A&P and these were the same Credits one would have recieved if they attnded a BSN program. They would transfer anywhere. How many credit hours of A&P(university level) do these Army Schools require in their Program? I think A&P 1&2 are the backbone of any good nursing course. My Opinion only,,
Wow, in Florida or Penna this would never fly, NO A&P Courses.
More specifically, no CLEP Challenge Exams for College level A&P coursework. I went to LPN School in NC and we where awarded 8 credits(equivlency of) for A&P and these were the same Credits one would have recieved if they attnded a BSN program. They would transfer anywhere. How many credit hours of A&P(university level) do these Army Schools require in their Program? I think A&P 1&2 are the backbone of any good nursing course. My Opinion only,,
*** Really it's no MORE A&P required for army trained LPNS. Our transript from the army school shows 8 hours of A&P. Non army trained LPNs in my program got credit for A&P I and had to take A&P II.
I very much disagree that A&P 1&2 are the backbone of anything related to nursing. An understanding of A&P is whats really important rather than how a nurse came to aquire that understanding.
What a shame that Florida and Penn require well trained army LPNs to sit through classes in subject that they already know and understand. Seems pretty condecending to me.
I would bet that making people pay to take classes that they don't need is more about the school getting tution, fees and selling books than anything else.
*** Really it's no MORE A&P required for army trained LPNS. Our transript from the army school shows 8 hours of A&P. Non army trained LPNs in my program got credit for A&P I and had to take A&P II.
I very much disagree that A&P 1&2 are the backbone of anything related to nursing. An understanding of A&P is whats really important rather than how a nurse came to aquire that understanding.
What a shame that Florida and Penn require well trained army LPNs to sit through classes in subject that they already know and understand. Seems pretty condecending to me.
I would bet that making people pay to take classes that they don't need is more about the school getting tution, fees and selling books than anything else.
I agree with you that understanding of A&P is very important but to dismiss A&P 1&2 as not being related to the backbone of Nursing is a statement I cannot agree with. If a student does not understand or know the Human body and how it functions how can he/she be a knowledgeable competent nurse? Why have Nursing schools for years, required comptenecy in this area? I would even throw Physics into the Mix if I set a curriculm. Now if you want to talk about useless time spent on those Care Plans I would agree a 100%, but not on the science courses. I can also see a school giving someone credit say for A&P if they test out say in a CLEP Test. I'm not saying sit in the classes and buy books if you can demonstrate, through a standerized testing process, the same knowledge someone else attained in a class. I wanted to ask you Again,(not in a condescending manner) just how much time was spent daily on A&P Instruction in the ARMY Schools? Was A&P taught seperately or was it mixed with the general Nursing education? In our school, we had students from the RT, PT, Pre Med, in our classes and the dissection labs. It was grueling to say the least but worth it! I agree many Nursing Schools require students to take courses that have NO Bearing on making a person a better Nurse only I don't think A&P are one of them,,,
I agree with you that understanding of A&P is very important but to dismiss A&P 1&2 as not being related to the backbone of Nursing is a statement I cannot agree with. If a student does not understand or know the Human body and how it functions how can he/she be a knowledgeable competent nurse?
*** They can't. As I said in my previous post it IS important for nurses to understand A&P (obviously). That is not what we are discussing.
Why have Nursing schools for years, required comptenecy in this area?
*** Becuase a nurse must know and understand A&P. However competency can be aquired in ways other than taking A&P I and II at a college.
I would even throw Physics into the Mix if I set a curriculm.
*** And I would include bio-chem, but no college has yet asked me what I think is important.
Now if you want to talk about useless time spent on those Care Plans I would agree a 100%, but not on the science courses. I can also see a school giving someone credit say for A&P if they test out say in a CLEP Test.
*** We agree.
I'm not saying sit in the classes and buy books if you can demonstrate, through a standerized testing process, the same knowledge someone else attained in a class. I wanted to ask you Again,(not in a condescending manner) just how much time was spent daily on A&P Instruction in the ARMY Schools? Was A&P taught seperately or was it mixed with the general Nursing education?
*** I can only speak for when I went through. We spent 8 weeks on A&P, 8 hours a day 5 days a week. This includes lab time spent with microscopes, in the cadaver lab (One fresh, never cut up cadaver per four students), and dissecting freshly killed pigs (we anestized them, shot them, tried to save, them then dissected them). In addition to that we had all had a basic level A&P in the combat medic school. That is 320 contact hours including lab time and of course many, many hours spent studying for exams on our own time. Our instructors where advanced practice nurses, MDs, special forces medics and some NCOs.
In our school, we had students from the RT, PT, Pre Med, in our classes and the dissection labs. It was grueling to say the least but worth it! I agree many Nursing Schools require students to take courses that have NO Bearing on making a person a better Nurse only I don't think A&P are one of them
*** Obviously a nurse need to understand A&P. That is not the issue up for discussion. The discussion is about forcing students to pay to take classes on subjects they already understand. My nursing school had had many former 91Cs (army LPNs) come through. They learned that making them take A&P was a waste so now army trained LPNs skip it. As they should. It is a shame that not all schools do so.
FWIW I learned hardly anything in RN school that I haden't already learned in army LPN school. I did learn that I had to stop saying "You guys didn't learn this already?" every time we started a new subject. For example I was taught to interpet ECGs, start and manage IVs, extensive pharmacology to include IV meds (for example as an army LPN I often started and manged vaso-active drips like nitroprusside and dopamine and other drips like insulin as well as TPN and others), hemodynamic monitoring, ICP monitoring, managing vents, swan and other central lines, intubation, x-ray confirmation of central line, NG & ET tube placement, and lots of other stuff. In fact I did more as an LPN in army burn ICU than I currently do as a civilian RN in the SICU. Of course most the people in my LPN school were already combat experienced medics (paramedics). Army trained LPNs can't really be compaired to cilivian trained LPNs. It used to be that army trained LPNs could challenge the RN-NCLEX in some states. I have an army buddy that did exactly that in his home state of W. Virgina and is an ICU RN today.
I agree with you that understanding of A&P is very important but to dismiss A&P 1&2 as not being related to the backbone of Nursing is a statement I cannot agree with. If a student does not understand or know the Human body and how it functions how can he/she be a knowledgeable competent nurse?
*** They can't. As I said in my previous post it IS important for nurses to understand A&P (obviously). That is not what we are discussing.
Why have Nursing schools for years, required comptenecy in this area?
*** Becuase a nurse must know and understand A&P. However competency can be aquired in ways other than taking A&P I and II at a college.
I would even throw Physics into the Mix if I set a curriculm.
*** And I would include bio-chem, but no college has yet asked me what I think is important.
Now if you want to talk about useless time spent on those Care Plans I would agree a 100%, but not on the science courses. I can also see a school giving someone credit say for A&P if they test out say in a CLEP Test.
*** We agree.
I'm not saying sit in the classes and buy books if you can demonstrate, through a standerized testing process, the same knowledge someone else attained in a class. I wanted to ask you Again,(not in a condescending manner) just how much time was spent daily on A&P Instruction in the ARMY Schools? Was A&P taught seperately or was it mixed with the general Nursing education?
*** I can only speak for when I went through. We spent 8 weeks on A&P, 8 hours a day 5 days a week. This includes lab time spent with microscopes, in the cadaver lab (One fresh, never cut up cadaver per four students), and dissecting freshly killed pigs (we anestized them, shot them, tried to save, them then dissected them). In addition to that we had all had a basic level A&P in the combat medic school. That is 320 contact hours including lab time and of course many, many hours spent studying for exams on our own time. Our instructors where advanced practice nurses, MDs, special forces medics and some NCOs.
In our school, we had students from the RT, PT, Pre Med, in our classes and the dissection labs. It was grueling to say the least but worth it! I agree many Nursing Schools require students to take courses that have NO Bearing on making a person a better Nurse only I don't think A&P are one of them
*** Obviously a nurse need to understand A&P. That is not the issue up for discussion. The discussion is about forcing students to pay to take classes on subjects they already understand. My nursing school had had many former 91Cs (army LPNs) come through. They learned that making them take A&P was a waste so now army trained LPNs skip it. As they should. It is a shame that not all schools do so.
FWIW I learned hardly anything in RN school that I haden't already learned in army LPN school. I did learn that I had to stop saying "You guys didn't learn this already?" every time we started a new subject. For example I was taught to interpet ECGs, start and manage IVs, extensive pharmacology to include IV meds (for example as an army LPN I often started and manged vaso-active drips like nitroprusside and dopamine and other drips like insulin as well as TPN and others), hemodynamic monitoring, ICP monitoring, managing vents, swan and other central lines, intubation, x-ray confirmation of central line, NG & ET tube placement, and lots of other stuff. In fact I did more as an LPN in army burn ICU than I currently do as a civilian RN in the SICU. Of course most the people in my LPN school were already combat experienced medics (paramedics). Army trained LPNs can't really be compaired to cilivian trained LPNs. It used to be that army trained LPNs could challenge the RN-NCLEX in some states. I have an army buddy that did exactly that in his home state of W. Virgina and is an ICU RN today.
Evidently there is misunderstanding on your words "I very much disagree that A&P 1&2 are the backbone of anything related to nursing" This statement was/is confusing. BTW, I am ex military also, 4 years active duty Coast Guard and 10 Years US Merchant Marine(DOD-dept of Navy) I transferred my Military Seatime(active duty time) day for day towards my US Coast Guard Merchant Mariner's Document. It didn't hurt the fact my Military Seatime was all US Coast Guard and the Coast Guard is the Accrediting Agency that reviews all military sea time(Coast Guard,navy, army ect, yes army vets can get seatime from small craft) for Merchant Mariners. I lucked out!
What I fail to understand also is that if you guys understand A&P as you mentioned those in the Army do, why don't they go and Clep out of the courses instead of paying for a class, all that time wasted? Clep Exams aren't that expensive. True, you can learn A&P otherwise then in a College setting but State licensing Boards(also the NLN) need a standard from which to measure the knowledge a person needs to be a competent practicioner. To date, actual college courses or Clep ACT-Pep and Dantes/USAFI Exams (I received 20 credits when I tested out of Physics, Math,Langauges ect when I was active duty) are still the standards most institutions accept for transfer. A friend of Mine Recievd her LPN by a Grandfather Clause in Pennsylvania many years ago fairly easily after 5 years of practice as a CCT(child care tech&nursing asst). All she had to do was get 3 Docs to recommend her as a competent Nurse, stating so many years experience in various areas you would find in classroom based LPN program. They stretched the truth a BIT; I'm happy she got her License but was she as well versed as an LPN who went to School--NO WAY! Many times she performed various actions clinically for which she did not understand the Rational. Pa No longer has this licensing method for obvious reasons.
Evidently there is misunderstanding on your words "I very much disagree that A&P 1&2 are the backbone of anything related to nursing" This statement was/is confusing.
*** A&P 1 and 2 are classes, not an understanding of A&P.
BTW, I am ex military also, 4 years active duty Coast Guard and 10 Years US Merchant Marine(DOD-dept of Navy)
*** Great, thank you for your service. Welcome home.
What I fail to understand also is that if you guys understand A&P as you mentioned those in the Army do, why don't they go and Clep out of the courses instead of paying for a class, all that time wasted?
*** They do at many schools. AT my school it wasn't required for two reasons. The first is that my particular school has a lot of experience with former 91Cs, the second is that ACE (American Council on Education) has evaluated the army's prorgam and recomends that graduates should recieve 8 semesters hours of A&P credit. It's a pretty standardized thing. WHat isn't standard is which schools allow the correct amount of credit to be given for military training.
I think those that pass A&P 1 and 2 at a college should have to pass a CLEP. Based on what I have seen as a working RN many would fail.
Clep Exams aren't that expensive. True, you can learn A&P otherwise then in a College setting but State licensing Boards(also the NLN) need a standard from which to measure the knowledge a person needs to be a competent practicioner.
*** Such a standard already exsists. Google ACE and read about it if you are interested.
A friend of Mine Recievd her LPN by a Grandfather Clause in Pennsylvania many years ago fairly easily after 5 years of practice as a CCT(child care tech&nursing asst). All she had to do was get 3 Docs to recommend her as a competent Nurse,
*** What you describe above is a very different issue.
Evidently there is misunderstanding on your words "I very much disagree that A&P 1&2 are the backbone of anything related to nursing" This statement was/is confusing.
*** A&P 1 and 2 are classes, not an understanding of A&P.
BTW, I am ex military also, 4 years active duty Coast Guard and 10 Years US Merchant Marine(DOD-dept of Navy)
*** Great, thank you for your service. Welcome home.
What I fail to understand also is that if you guys understand A&P as you mentioned those in the Army do, why don't they go and Clep out of the courses instead of paying for a class, all that time wasted?
*** They do at many schools. AT my school it wasn't required for two reasons. The first is that my particular school has a lot of experience with former 91Cs, the second is that ACE (American Council on Education) has evaluated the army's prorgam and recomends that graduates should recieve 8 semesters hours of A&P credit. It's a pretty standardized thing. WHat isn't standard is which schools allow the correct amount of credit to be given for military training.
I think those that pass A&P 1 and 2 at a college should have to pass a CLEP. Based on what I have seen as a working RN many would fail.
Clep Exams aren't that expensive. True, you can learn A&P otherwise then in a College setting but State licensing Boards(also the NLN) need a standard from which to measure the knowledge a person needs to be a competent practicioner.
*** Such a standard already exsists. Google ACE and read about it if you are interested.
A friend of Mine Recievd her LPN by a Grandfather Clause in Pennsylvania many years ago fairly easily after 5 years of practice as a CCT(child care tech&nursing asst). All she had to do was get 3 Docs to recommend her as a competent Nurse,
*** What you describe above is a very different issue.
I am well Aware of what I wrote about my friend who recieved her LPN by challenge is a different issue. I mentioned it only to illustrate a method Penna used to accept for those seeking alternate ways in getting their LPN and how things change with time. A&P was Not mentioned in that phrase.
Probably many Nurses who first studied A&P 30 years ago(myself included) may not pass all areas of an A&P Exam today. The same is true of other disciplines, engineering, History ect. When I first took pre-med A&P 1&2 at Penn state in 1977 I was not even in Nursing, though I had Nursing(bsn) sudents in my class. 10 years later when I entered Nursing school, I decided to Repeat A&P 1&2 because I was away from it for so long. I passed all with A's. That was my call though, not the school as they accepted my Penn State Credit. Maybe you should direct your thoughts on a Clep Exam to Department heads in the various Institutions you feel these working RNs would fail in. Have they endangered patients due to their precieved shortcomings in A&P?
My Military sevice--that was a long time ago----came home in the late 60s during VietNam and then went back out to serve another 10 years later in life. The Coast Guard is truly a wonderful outfit though it had a tough boot camp--14 weeks when I went through(1965). Now Boot camp is 8 weeks in duration only, way too little in my opinion but the powers to be have determined that to be sufficient.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Probably many Nurses who first studied A&P 30 years ago(myself included) may not pass all areas of an A&P Exam today.
*** Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was talking about people who just finished their A&P classes. It has been my observation that the qualiety of such classes varies greatly from school to school.
The same is true of other disciplines, engineering, History ect. When I first took pre-med A&P 1&2 at Penn state in 1977 I was not even in Nursing, though I had Nursing(bsn) sudents in my class. 10 years later when I entered Nursing school, I decided to Repeat A&P 1&2 because I was away from it for so long. I passed all with A's. That was my call though, not the school as they accepted my Penn State Credit.
*** If I had needed to I would have repeated the classes. I didn't need to as I had been working as an LPN and using and expanding my knowledge of A&P the whole time.
Maybe you should direct your thoughts on a Clep Exam to Department heads in the various Institutions you feel these working RNs would fail in.
*** I doubt they would care to hear any opinons I would have on the subject. However when I orient new grads to my unit I can certainly see a big difference between the grads of the various schools. UW Oshkosh grads have an awesome understanding of A&P, pharm and patho. Grads of a certain local catholic college are seriously lacking IMO.
Have they endangered patients due to their precieved shortcomings in A&P?
*** It's not that, it's more about how much time and effort the hospital has to spend getting them up to speed.
My Military sevice--that was a long time ago----came home in the late 60s during VietNam and then went back out to serve another 10 years later in life. The Coast Guard is truly a wonderful outfit
*** I have heard that about the CG. A high school friend of mine went to the CG academy and is now a Lt. comander (O-4). He used to like to tell me that between Viet Nam and Gulf War I the CG fired more ammo in action than all the other services combined. We had a few of their corpsmen training with us at Ft. Sam Houston. They liked to drink and fight. Nice dress uniforms to.
There is a lot of Confusion on this ISU External LPN-RN Program on this site. Let me share with you what I have found out: This ISU LPN-RN program isn't catagorized like the Exclesior Program. Excelsior is strictly a External Program whereas with Indiana, they first had a well developed Traditional BSN program inplace when they started the Online LPN-RN Program. Huge difference. In extensive conversations with ISU, I was informed when you graduate, you receive a BSN Diploma from ISU. It does NOT say you attended the Online school, only you attended and graduated from ISU. ISU's Traditional BSN program is NLN Accredited and has been for years. In my case, Pennsylvania(even though I currently reside in Miami but will relocate to Penna in the near future), I was told by the Penna State board of Nursing that when they recieve an Applicant's Form for the Penna RN Exam or a request for Licensure by recipricocity from a Graduate of ISU, they only SEE on the ISU transcripts that you are a Graduate of ISU. ISU does not indicate on your transcript that you attended the Online school, only that you attended and graduated from ISU. In contrast, with Excelsior College, all the State Boards of Nursing KNOW that Excelsior is strictly a External Program and it is also stated as such on the Transcripts. Big difference. ISU BSN Degrees, as far as I can determine from my research, are of course NLN approved and accepted by all State Boards of Nursing, as is a Nursing Grad of Penn State U, U of Mich, ect. Hope this clears up some confusion. I think as the Nursing shortage worsens many more similiar programs from Traditional BSN Programs will pop up to meet demand. They really have NO choice if they want to meet demand as it is obvious that Traditioanl programs cannot meet the shortage.
I dont know if this went through, but there was a motion to ban endorsing licenses from nurses transfering who graduated from ISU in the state of Georgia. I was searching the web and found this in the minutes from one of the BON meetings last year. I can't find anywhere where it says that this passed though. The board rules just state
"(1) An applicant who is licensed as a registered nurse in another jurisdiction must:
(a) have graduated from a nursing education program prior to passing a licensing
examination recognized by the Board as valid for licensure as a registered nurse in
Georgia:"
I think I will just call them and ask about it. I wouldn't be surprised though if it did pass they already have an issue with Excelsior. I know that they are not the same type of programs, but evidently it doesn't matter to the board. I figure I'll just keep trying to apply to the schools around here. There are some LPN-BSN schools in the state but they are about 200 miles away from me, I don't think DH will be too pleased with me packing up and moving away just to get into one of these programs. :roll
I dont know if this went through, but there was a motion to ban endorsing licenses from nurses transfering who graduated from ISU in the state of Georgia. I was searching the web and found this in the minutes from one of the BON meetings last year. I can't find anywhere where it says that this passed though. The board rules just state
"(1) An applicant who is licensed as a registered nurse in another jurisdiction must:
(a) have graduated from a nursing education program prior to passing a licensing
examination recognized by the Board as valid for licensure as a registered nurse in
Georgia:"
I think I will just call them and ask about it. I wouldn't be surprised though if it did pass they already have an issue with Excelsior. I know that they are not the same type of programs, but evidently it doesn't matter to the board. I figure I'll just keep trying to apply to the schools around here. There are some LPN-BSN schools in the state but they are about 200 miles away from me, I don't think DH will be too pleased with me packing up and moving away just to get into one of these programs. :roll
I think some may read more into this then really exists. If Georgia was going to ban ISU Grads(NLN approved btw) then it would entail the BAN of all ISU grads as ISO makes no diffrentation between ISO online Grads and ISO grads who attended the Traditional program of study on your final transcript. WHat you overlook is that Excelsior is ONLY a Online Program whereas ISO was iniatially a traditional Campus based program. Did you read my long previous post BTW??
jamangel
253 Posts
Amen!